--- Log opened Sun Nov 06 00:00:52 2005
00:01 < valentin> gn8 all
00:02 < rxr> hm - I wonder where the g3 files go @ gsmp ..
00:03 < mnemoc> if you find them, please move them to t2/incoming so i can apply my magic script to distribute links :)
00:04 < rxr> I fear I do not find them
00:04 < mnemoc> find -name '*.iso' ?
00:04 < rxr> find -name *g3* did not - and the dir is empty ..
00:04 < rxr> Error logs from default-2.2.0-alpha-sparc64-v9vis-desktop:
00:04 < rxr> [5] base/00-dirtree                     [5] base/glibc [5] base/glibc32                        [5] base/gcc [5] security/openssl
00:04 < rxr> 971 builds total, 214 completed fine, 5 with errors.
00:05 < mnemoc> dirtree??
00:05 < rxr> maybe I had no write rights
00:05 < rxr> why the hell is rsync uploading the whole data then
00:06 < rxr> I would have expected access denied then
00:06 < rxr> not e.g. at the end after all data was pushed
00:06 < rxr> crap
00:06 < rxr> I guess I have not to comment on that
00:07 < rxr> mnemoc: if the 2.1 changes regarding caching do not show regressions so far (can only regress in the early stages) please commit some time soon ,-)
00:07 < mnemoc> rxr: may mysqlcc regression be caused by that?
00:09 < rxr> doubt
00:09 < rxr> 99.9999999999999999% no
00:10 < rxr> mnemoc: or we move my athlon to the uni - build on that and thus have no up-load at all ,-)
00:10 < rxr> and I save a lot on my electricity bill ...
00:11 < mnemoc> :)
00:13 -!- MisterN [n=MrN@p549CFCEC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #t2
00:13 < MisterN> heya
00:13 < MisterN> <- interested in hotplug++ (we all want speed :D)
00:15 < rxr> MisterN: do you have the link the the homepage and source?
00:15 < rxr> MisterN: any particular question ?
00:16 < rxr> MisterN: even tried out the last livecd release with it?
00:16 < MisterN> http://www.t2-project.org/hotplug++/ <- this is link.
00:16 < rxr> (though there is a shiny new live-cd due next week that has a lot of updates ...)
00:16 < rxr> MisterN: ack
00:16 < MisterN> i admit i'm not currently interested in the hassle of trying another distro *g*
00:17 < MisterN> but.. how far from usable is hotplug++?
00:17 < rxr> it is the default in our development trunk
00:17 < rxr> and used in the livecd we released and tested on quite some hardware
00:18 < rxr> http://www.t2-project.org/live/
00:18 < rxr> http://www.t2-project.org/live/hardware.html
00:18 < rxr> and used in a commercial product: http://www.archivista.ch/
00:19 < MisterN> so it _is_ usable
00:19 < mnemoc> 3yes
00:19 < MisterN> hmm
00:19 < mnemoc> -3
00:20 < rxr> I think so
00:21 < rxr> with u/dev it needs adaptiosn to perfectly integrate with version younger than 058
00:21 < rxr> that is the version where I lost the time to adapt to every weeks major changes in udev
00:21 < MisterN> mmh
00:21 < rxr> it is likely I update hotplug++ for the latest u/dev version next week in order to stabelize for our 2.2 release
00:23 < MisterN> i think i have 4 options: 1. stick with hotplug (and don't switch distro) 2. switch to T2 3. stay with current distro but use hotplug++ 4. stay with current distro but use hotplug-ng
00:24 < MisterN> ok, there are more possibilites *g*
00:24 < rxr> yeah - that might be it
00:24 < rxr> MisterN: the major options
00:24 < rxr> what distribution are you using ?
00:24 < MisterN> gentoo *g*
00:25 < rxr> hotplug++ is written in embedded C++ which I find quite nice to maintain over plain old C. ...
00:25 < MisterN> it's starting to annoy me though: slow portage, slow boot
00:25 < rxr> YMMF
00:25 < MisterN> rxr: i'm a c++ fanatic so that's fine
00:25 < rxr> indeed the last time I look gentoo bootup was quite slow
00:25 < rxr> our livecd boots faster than that gentoo from HD ...
00:25 < mnemoc> keinek tried it last week
00:26 < rxr> mnemoc: gentoo ?
00:26 < mnemoc> yes, but he hate it
00:26 < MisterN> well gentoo has proved usable for amd64.
00:26 < MisterN> and i know how to use it
00:26 < MisterN> those are my major reasons
00:27 < rxr> MisterN: I use T2 on x86, x86-64, powerpc and arm (though the later only in dietlibc 4-8MB environments so far
00:27 < rxr> oh - not to forget sparc64 ... ,-)
00:27 < mnemoc> and soon ppc64
00:27 < MisterN> rxr: so i should give it a try? :D
00:28 < rxr> T2 builds more than less on powerpc64 and some more arches I have no hardware for ... ,-)
00:28 < rxr> MisterN: well - I'm bias'ed ...
00:28 < rxr> MisterN: you could grab a live and give it a try ,-)
00:29 < MisterN> rxr: livecds don't prove too much
00:29 < rxr> beast wait some days for the livecd I'm just working on - it has major updates over the last one over a month old - including swith to X11R7 (known as modular X.org) and bult with gcc-4.0 instead of gcc-3.4.3 ...
00:30 < MisterN> k. i'll just add #t2 to my autojoin list for a few days or maybe forever so i'll know when it's done *g*
00:30 < rxr> MisterN: at least they show what you would get - I think many people prefer to get an overview thru them these days ...
00:30 < MisterN> rxr: yes but the problematic thing (adminstration) is not too important on them
00:32 < MisterN> i just really read this: "including swith to X11R7 (known as modular X.org) and bult with gcc-4.0 instead of gcc-3.4.3 .." <- nice!
00:33 < mnemoc> that's t2 trunk aka 2.2
00:33 < MisterN> how good is graphics acceleration as of now? *g*
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00:45 < rxr> re
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00:46 [Users #t2]
00:46 [ _Ragnar_] [ jsaw   ] [ morfoh] [ rxr      ] [ valentin] 
00:46 [ Baldzius] [ MisterN] [ mtr   ] [ SerWou   ] 
00:46 [ CIA-12  ] [ mnemoc ] [ owl   ] [ sparc-kly] 
00:46 -!- Irssi: #t2: Total of 13 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 13 normal]
00:48 < MisterN> i just read some of the hotplug++ sources. you wrote that it is embedded-c++. what is embedded-c++? the one i heard about had no templates
00:49 < mnemoc> what's the url of the one you know?
00:49 < rxr> MisterN: well - of course the source looks as hit normal
00:49 < MisterN> that's long time ago
00:49 < rxr> but it is not build with the normal G++ support library and STL
00:50 < MisterN> but with g++ for compiler?
00:50 < rxr> instead we started an own, tiny, embeded subset that is magnitudes smaller in size and allows linking with alternative C library - by default we use Felix von Leitners dietlibc
00:50 < rxr> MisterN: well - sort of
00:51 < MisterN> "sort of"?
00:51 < rxr> MisterN: you need a g++ compiler - but we use gcc as compiler frontend and some low-level tweak you do not see
00:51 < rxr> so you execute gcc your-c++-file.cc ...
00:51 < MisterN> so it _is_ g++ for compiler but with replaced library stuff
00:51 < rxr> it is processed as normal C++ by the GCC compiler driver but no link in stuff G++ usually does link in
00:51 < MisterN> just curious: what does your c++ runtime implementation lack?
00:52 < rxr> currently it only has the bare basics for streams, strings and a vector or so
00:52 < rxr> that is all we need for hotplug++ so far - later I want to have all containers, all useful stream stuff, manipulators and algorithms
00:53 < rxr> though they will most probably find no use in hotplug++ they will be of use in other projects
00:53 < MisterN> i meant different things
00:53 < rxr> and since only linked in when needed not blow up the size
00:53 < MisterN> do you have RTTI and such stuff?
00:53 < MisterN> exceptions?
00:53 < rxr> I fully need to evaluate the size penalty of those two features
00:54 < rxr> maybe exceptions will not be supported ...
00:54 < rxr> but I need to carefully review the size and generated assembly
00:54 < MisterN> sure
00:55 < MisterN> there definitely is some size penalty. especially with gcc's implementation
00:58 < MisterN> i have no exact numbers though
00:59 < rxr> I remebered gcc-3 exception code got siginificant smaller compared to 2.95.3 though
01:00  * mnemoc moving home
01:01 < morfoh> cu mnemoc :)
01:01 < MisterN> rxr: you will probably not add exceptions too soon, though, as there is no urgent need *g*
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01:54 < morfoh> good night 
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03:01 < aaggel> hello , is this the place to ask general questions about the t2 distro?
03:06 < mnemoc> aaggel: yes
03:07 < mnemoc> aaggel: but t2 itself is a framework, not a distro
03:08 < aaggel> hello mnemoc
03:08 < mnemoc> hello aaggel :)
03:09 < aaggel> i saw a posting in osnews about the new release and i started lookink on the handbook
03:09 < aaggel> when you talk about framework what exactly do you mean
03:09 < aaggel> ?
03:10 < mnemoc> a 'database' and a set of tools to design, build, distribute and maintain distributions
03:11 < mnemoc> a "System Development Enviroment"
03:11 < mnemoc> or "Distribution Build Kit" as ROCK named it
03:12 < aaggel> mnemoc: so for example i install t2 on my desktop and with the tools it provides i can make my own cd/custom distro ?
03:13 < mnemoc> t2-desktop is a t2-powered distribution, which can be used to build new distributions
03:14 < aaggel> mnemoc : ok i know see the diference between "t2-system framework" and its  t2 derived distribution
03:14 < mnemoc> puzzled? :)
03:14 < mnemoc> :)
03:15 < aaggel> mnemoc : i also browse at the t2 website and i see a lot of bsd influence. :-)
03:16 < aaggel> mnemoc : so the best way to get the feeling of the t2 system is to install the desktop distribution , and then read the handbook?
03:19 < mnemoc> aaggel: the handbook is a bit outdated, but it's ok for getting involved
03:20 < mnemoc> aaggel: and t2 is warratied to work on t2-desktop and t2-minimal, so the experience is better
03:21 < mnemoc> the main difference between bsd and us is that we keep packages as their author released them, the only patch are to let the build
03:21 < mnemoc> we don't fork or over patch them
03:21 < mnemoc> so updates and customizations are easier
03:22 < aaggel> mnemoc: i see that from that perspective that you make a strong point
03:23 < aaggel> mnemoc: i am a freebsd user old linux user and i switched due to the port system and cleaner design, so t2 captured my attention
03:23 < mnemoc> :D
03:23 < mnemoc> welcome
03:24 < aaggel> mnemoc : in the next days when i am back to my dsl line (i am on vication now) i am definatelly going to try t2 and be back in the channel to share my first impression
03:27 < mnemoc> :)
03:28 < aaggel> mnemoc: thanks a lot for the info , being back soon
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04:14 < CIA-12> amery * r13174 /trunk/package/office/ooo/hotfix_libwpd.patch: * changed ooo's hotfix_libwpd.patch aproach to create .tar.gz instead of forcing OOo to use a .tar.bz2
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08:29 < valentin> moin
08:32 -!- misl [n=chatzill@82-217-66-150.cable.quicknet.nl] has joined #t2
08:33 < misl> morning all
08:34 < valentin> hi misl
08:38 < misl> hi valentin
08:40 < misl> noisy is running :) for nearly a full week I hope.
08:48 < valentin> and you have still enough fluid helium left for it i hope ;)
08:50 < misl> hehe, I live very close to Amsterdam Airport (Schiphol). pssst, I have an illegal tap there.
08:51 < misl> don't tell any further, psst
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10:19 < owl> moin
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10:36 -!- Topic for #t2:  T2 | 2.1.0 RELEASED! | The System Development Environment (SDE) | http://www.t2-project.org/
10:36 -!- Topic set by mnemoc [] [Fri Nov  4 16:55:33 2005]
10:36 [Users #t2]
10:36 [ _Ragnar_] [ CIA-12] [ mnemoc] [ owl] [ SerWou   ] [ valentin] 
10:36 [ Baldzius] [ jsaw  ] [ mtr_  ] [ rxr] [ sparc-kly] 
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10:36 -!- Channel #t2 created Sun Aug  8 21:15:33 2004
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12:11 < rxr> re
12:16 < CIA-12> rene * r13175 /trunk/package/filesystem/unionfs/ (pkg_linux26_post.conf postlinux.conf unionfs.desc): 
12:16 < CIA-12> * updated unionfs (1.0.14-20051025-2113 -> 1.1.1) - reverted removal
12:16 < CIA-12>  of postlinux* files, of course it is not in the mainline kernel
12:17 < CIA-12> rene * r13176 /trunk/package/filesystem/fuse/ (5 files): * removed postlinux* from fuse, it is in the mainline kernel now
12:18 -!- morfoh [n=jeru@p54BED7DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #t2
12:19 < morfoh> hi
12:19 < owl> hi morfoh 
12:20 < morfoh> hi owl
12:22 < rxr> hi owl
12:31 < rxr> That Novell (Suse) will use more Gnome in the future instead of KDE is a bit of a shock for me ...
12:35 < CIA-12> rene * r13177 /trunk/target/livecd/build_image.sh: * fixed mksquash for latest changes in mksquash itself
12:37 < CIA-12> rene * r13178 /trunk/target/livecd/ (build_initrd.sh init): 
12:37 < CIA-12> * added a tiny, static rm to the livecd's initrd, used that to
12:37 < CIA-12>  delete the static binaries tree and made the symlink loop
12:37 < CIA-12>  more elegant
12:55 < rxr> oh - mnemoc gsmp. made 96.92 GB yesterday ...
12:55 < rxr> http://linux.softpedia.com/progDownload/T2-Linux-Download-2049.html
13:02 < rxr> mnemoc: http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity <- we are now in all statistics again ,-)
13:07 < CIA-12> rene * r13179 /trunk/package/network/iproute2/rocknet_iproute2.sh: * fixed rocknet to let iproute2's ip set the boardcast address
13:09 < rxr> mnemoc: with testing r13179 should go into stable
13:10 < rxr> mnemoc: I spotted that on the rock listed, works for me
13:23 < morfoh> bbl
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14:51 < rxr> http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5821771772&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT
14:51 < rxr> ^- 2x600MHz ...
14:53 < sparc-kly> 6gb ram :S 
14:56 < sparc-kly> rxr: so that you wish a SGI
15:07 < valentin> short hi
15:07 < valentin> rxr: nice box, wanna buy ?
15:08 < valentin> bbl
15:08 < rxr> valentin: a bit expensive ...
15:09 < valentin> 6GB ram
15:09 < rxr> valentin: 806,00 EUR and 4 days to go ...
15:09 -!- sepp [n=sepp@p213.54.223.203.tisdip.tiscali.de] has joined #t2
15:10 < sepp> moin
15:10 < rxr> http://www.reputable.com/octaneleds.html
15:11 < rxr> ^- .o(the lights are exchangeable - what a feature ...)
15:11 < valentin> cu later
15:11 < rxr> cu valentin 
15:15 < rxr> http://oss.sgi.com/mips/
15:19 < mnemoc> moin!
15:19 < mnemoc> rxr: i got another regression identical to mysqlcc
15:22 < mnemoc> socat
15:23 < mnemoc> http://t2.geeks.cl/regressions/stable/
15:24 < rxr> moin mnemoc !
15:24 < mnemoc> moin rxr 
15:25 < rxr> you have not update / changed s.th. in the openssl region ?
15:25 < mnemoc> nope
15:26 < rxr> hm
15:26 < mnemoc> r12989 | rene | 2005-10-30 16:50:47 -0300 (Sun, 30 Oct 2005) | 2 lines
15:26 < mnemoc> * fixed openssl for powerpc64
15:26 < mnemoc> ^-- last change on openssl
15:26 < rxr> .oO
15:26  * rxr hiding
15:26 < mnemoc> r10593 | chris | 2005-07-23 13:11:53 -0400 (Sat, 23 Jul 2005) | 2 lines
15:26 < mnemoc> * merged 10296: removed hard wired configure option for building shared libraries and added a small test if "shared" option should be injected
15:26 < mnemoc> ^--- maybe this
15:27 < rxr> hm
15:28 < mnemoc> but that is pre-rc3, so it should be reflected on previous reference
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15:32 < rxr> mnemoc: mips is still in good shape in t2 - mips64 is building as well
15:32 < mnemoc> :)
15:32 < mnemoc> rxr: what 'broadcast +' means?
15:33 < rxr> to automatically compute it from the netmask
15:33 < mnemoc> rxr: isn't 'auto broadcast' the default behavior?
15:33 < rxr> nope
15:33 < rxr> 0.0.0.0
15:33 < rxr> is default 
15:33 < rxr> I alsways wondered about that though so far I have no seen strange behaviour due to that
15:33 < rxr> but it is nice to have it fixed
15:34 < rxr> I think - does as well
15:34 < rxr> maybe we should use '-' instead of '+' - looks more unix style ...
15:34 < rxr> however one would need to read the iptables source - the man page does not say a difference between those two
15:36 < CIA-12> rene * r13180 /trunk/package/base/autoconf/parse-config: 
15:36 < CIA-12> * fixed the autoconf/parse-config config.{sub,guess} updating to
15:36 < CIA-12>  only be active in stage 1 and up
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15:42 < rxr> valentin: MIPS have multiply add and such DSP-style instructions ...
15:52 < rxr> valentin: a Octane 2 dual 400 has a equal performance in Maja (3D modeller / render) is as fast as a Pentium 4 @ 1700 MHz
15:53 < rxr> http://sabia.tic.udc.es/gc/Contenidos adicionales/trabajos/Programas3D/maya/compara2.htm
15:55 < mnemoc> %20 is your friend :)
15:56 < rxr> oops - yes ,-)
16:25  * mnemoc wonders why 2.1 has wmacpi-2.1 and trunk wmacpi-1.34
16:28 < rxr> interesting indeed
16:30 < mnemoc> outdated working copy
16:32 < CIA-12> amery * r13181 /branches/2.1/package/x11/wmacpi/wmacpi.desc: * merged 12659 from trunk: changed wmacpi prio to be built after libdockapp
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17:10 < CIA-12> amery * r13182 /trunk/package/office/ooo/t2-distro.patch: * fixed ooo, now we don't add a patch for libwpd so don't tell ooo-build we do
17:11 < morfoh_> re
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17:12 < CIA-12> amery * r13183 /trunk/package/office/ooo/ooo.desc: * reenabled ooo's [D] ooo_crystal_images-6.tar.bz2 because it's needed for KDE support
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17:24 < CIA-12> rene * r13184 /trunk/package/mips/arcload/ (. arcload.desc): * added arcload (0.43)
17:24 < CIA-12> rene * r13185 /trunk/package/mips/arcboot/ (. arcboot.desc): * added arcboot (0.3.8.7)
17:33 < CIA-12> rene * r13186 /trunk/package/editors/nvi/no-strip.patch.cross: * fixed nvi to not try to strip nvi
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17:48 < rxr> I think I give up my current code to not extract headers out of glibc - gcc is too broken ..
17:49 < rxr> damn
17:49 < rxr> well - then I have to fo the other pain path and fix glibc header extraction for mips ...
17:57 < CIA-12> rene * r13187 /trunk/package/base/binutils/binutils.conf: * remove -Werror from binutils builds, every now and then it fails due warnings ...
18:00 < CIA-12> rene * r13188 /trunk/package/base/glibc/subconfig-libc.in: 
18:00 < CIA-12> * started to automatically select per architecture whether TLS/NPTL is
18:00 < CIA-12>  supported
18:01 < CIA-12> rene * r13189 /trunk/package/base/glibc/subconfig-libc.in: * ouhm - fixed NPTL auto-selection, never do last minute edits ...
18:06 < mnemoc> http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/menu-spec-0.9.html <--- bathroom reading :\
18:07 < rxr> ?
18:07 < rxr> mnemoc: do you want gnome now for that company ?
18:07 < rxr> I could help then hunting that down ...
18:09 < mnemoc> :)
18:18 < rxr> well - I think I can commit mips64 then soon ...
18:21 < rxr> mnemoc: is :) a yes, please help track or a no I'll find it sooner than later?
18:23 < mnemoc> rxr: i'll find it later than sooner
18:23 < rxr> ouhm
18:23 < rxr> mnemoc: and for use in the company or just for the sake of it ?
18:23 < mnemoc> i'm also think on how to really integrate this stuff on T2
18:24 < mnemoc> rxr: gnome was 'requested'
18:24 < morfoh> hi mnemoc, rxr 
18:24 < rxr> mnemoc: integrate what ?
18:24 < rxr> the XDG desktop stuff ?
18:25 < mnemoc> yes
18:26 < mnemoc> and localization
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18:27 < rxr> I already added XDG_ variable setting to /etc/profile.d
18:28 < mnemoc> but also por packages which 'deserve' a .desktop or a .menu and they don't provide it
18:40 < mnemoc> rxr: ccache cleanup seems to flush the whole cache on some failure cases
18:41 < mnemoc> rxr: == 11:48:20 =[5]=> Building office/ooo [2.0.0.1 2.1-stable].
18:41 < mnemoc> rxr: -> Compiler Cache enabled: 70.80% cache hits so far.
18:41 < mnemoc> rxr: == 14:25:00 =[5]=> Building office/ooo [2.0.0.1 2.1-stable].
18:41 < mnemoc> rxr: -> Compiler Cache enabled: 0.00% cache hits so far.
18:43 < mnemoc> brbr
18:43 -!- Baldzius [n=mx@85.206.93.51] has quit ["Leaving"]
18:47 < morfoh> mnemoc: are there any other known problems while building ooo on 2.1 ?
19:14 < rxr> I think I get a Octane 2 just because the graphic board is so uniq and cool:
19:14 < rxr> http://www.linux-mips.org/wiki/ODYSSEY
19:15 < rxr> that should be standard among all new systems - a opengl firmware where a then universal driver would throw in the opengl commands ...
19:38 -!- ojh [n=omer@209-181-59-24.eugn.qwest.net] has joined #t2
19:41 < rxr> hi ojh 
19:41 < ojh> Hi. I'm back online again ::
19:42 < ojh> While I had no Internet access I did make major progresses on programming my customized Desktop Environment.
19:43 < mnemoc> morfoh: m123 builds fine, 2.0.0.1 is not yet ready
19:47 < ojh> It is completely new (NOT based on KDE or GNOME) it does, however use ROX as the file manager. The main components are corner menus that show the ROX bookmark menu and a window list menu. It also features a Mozilla based backdrop window and a SOAP based API accessible from JavaScript programs running on the background.
19:48 < morfoh> mnemoc: have you tried to build 2.0.0.1 recently ?
19:55 < rxr> ojh: ,-)
19:55 < rxr> ojh: do you now this symphony or so desktop ?
19:56 < rxr> http://www.symphonyos.com/
19:57 < morfoh> rxr / ojh ... while reading ojh description I also thought about symphony 
19:59 < ojh> Yes, I know about Symphony. Similar to what I want to achieve but has slightly different goals.
19:59 < rxr> shortly away
20:02 < ojh> I want simplicity. The minimum pixels on screen used for anything other then what you are doing at the time. So my corner icons are very small always-on-top windows. In Symphony the 'corner menus' are links on the background HTML page, the WM it set to maximize windows leaving a blank space at the tom and bottom for the background to show.
20:04 < ojh> My system is also meant to be more deeply integrated with ROX and Zero-Install.
20:05 < ojh> And 'Klix' as they are based on ROX AppDirs too.
20:07 < morfoh> mnemoc: do we have official 2.1.0 athlon-xp iso's or is somebody building them atm. ?
20:07 < morfoh> ojh: indeed ... sounds nice ;)
20:09 < ojh> morfoh: I like how it is turning out. I am using it right now. As soon as I am done writing the needed Make files (and other odd jobs) I will be able to release an initial release.
20:10 < morfoh> ojh: pls don't forget to announce it here ;)
20:12 < morfoh> mnemoc: anyway ... I already started to build athlon-xp iso's
20:12 < ojh> morfoh: Will do. I am using ROCK/T2 for development so I might as well make a patch with the DESC file for effortless installing on T2.
20:13  * morfoh away for preparing some cheese nachos 
20:13 < morfoh> ojh: cools ;)
20:33 -!- geekitus [n=geekitus@83.179.133.149] has joined #t2
20:37 < rxr> re
21:23 -!- geekitus [n=geekitus@83.179.133.149] has quit ["Parti"]
21:28 -!- MisterN [n=MrN@p549CF7A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #t2
21:34 < ojh> There is one area of design that I am giving much thought to for the DE. That is the proper mechanism for Notifications. I have already decided to abandon the much abused "notification area" icons used in Windoze/GNOME/KDE and use some sort of notification service that appears with required notifications with out getting in the User's way.
21:34 < ojh> Any specific thoughts/arguments on the subject?
21:35 < MisterN> well: they shoudl fade away and not hide content
21:36 < MisterN> and they must not be critical. this means that if you miss one you mustn't be lost
21:37 < MisterN> but the systray is nice for services that run all-the-time and have settings and such
21:38 < ojh> MisterN: I am considering a window that 'slides' off screen and into view for a few moments and then slides back. I think that the ability to show a notification history would be useful too, say you miss the notification about new email or something. The Notification should also be accessible at any time to review the notifications.
21:39 < MisterN> ojh: i think i get the idea
21:41 < ojh> MisterN: Perhaps another corner menu to access the history when one wants.
21:41 < MisterN> so you have a window that becomes big when a notification arrives and small after some time but you can always make it bigger and even scroll to old notifications. all in one window *G*
21:42 < ojh> MisterN: Yes, that is what I have in mind. Add to that some priority based filtering of the notifications to tell the program what to not bother with interupting me with, just log it.
21:42 -!- sepp [n=sepp@p213.54.223.203.tisdip.tiscali.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
21:43 < MisterN> good filtering is the hard part
21:43 < MisterN> how shall the implementation look like?
21:44 -!- sepp [n=sepp@p213.54.223.203.tisdip.tiscali.de] has joined #t2
21:45 < ojh> MisterN: I was thinking that a well behaved program that uses the Service should put a priority value and category tag on each notification for filtering purposes. Then the notification GUI could have a simple right-click menu on each message to set its filtering status.
21:46 < CIA-12> sebastian * r13190 /trunk/package/network/libotr/libotr.desc: * updated libotr (2.0.2 -> 3.0.0)
21:47 < MisterN> ojh: is this notification thing of yours part of a specific project?
21:47 < ojh> MisterN: Say the IM program issues a note that one of your contacts logged in but you don't want to be interrupted by such messages. You could right-click on the message and select "Log Only" or something.
21:47 < CIA-12> sebastian * r13191 /trunk/package/network/gaim-otr/ (gaim-otr.desc ui.patch): * updated gaim-otr (2.0.2 -> 3.0.0)
21:48 < ojh> MisterN: Yes, it will be part of the 'Z' Desktop Environment.
21:49 < ojh> MisterN: I already have most of the DE operational and need to make an initial release soon.
21:49 < MisterN> ojh: iirc there is some draft standard for notifications which defines the API and advised implementation only.
21:49 < MisterN> it uses dbus
21:50 < ojh> MisterN: I have some memory about reading about the concept, maybe a thread on OSnews or something.
21:52 < ojh> MisterN: I am considering using SOAP, most everything under the sun is linked against an XML and socket lib anyway. And SOAP is network transparent.
21:52 < MisterN> gnaa
21:52 < MisterN> soap is no good :D
21:54 < ojh> MisterN: The messages are very small, the overhead would not be a problem any more then opening a named pipe and sending any other sort of text based data.
21:56 < MisterN> :(
21:56 < MisterN> what's the problem with dbus?
21:56 < ojh> MisterN: On the client side an XML lib would not be needed, the message envelope can be just a text constant with the message data added to it. And most applications using Notifications are Internet related and already depend on the socket lib.
21:57 < MisterN> this is no answer to my question
21:58 < ojh> MisterN: Nothing is wrong with Dbus, in fact it may have advantages in that 2 way communication with the Notification daemon can be done.
21:58 < MisterN> there are quite a number of internet-unrelated apps which need notifications
21:58 < MisterN> and really i want dbus to be pushed forward because I like it.
21:59 < MisterN> IMO it's better than SOAP,XMLRPC,CORBA,all this shit
22:00 < ojh> MisterN: A reasonable point too. But I don't like the notification service becoming some sort of complex GUI element with buttons, links and all sort of junk in the messages.
22:01 < MisterN> you may define your own API
22:01 < ojh> MisterN: I am in the design phase of the Notification daemon and DBUS is still worth considering.  :)
22:01 < MisterN> ok so i may calm down and still have hopes :)
22:03 < ojh> MisterN: But the gsoap tool chain makes developing simple, fast, compact SOAP services (and clients) in C (and C++) additively easy too.
22:05 < MisterN> i fear i can't compare
22:05 < MisterN> i never did dbus development due to lack of need (yet)
22:05 < MisterN> but I _use_ it
22:06 < ojh> MisterN: My DE already has the main service engine using SOAP (a daemon written in C) because the API needs to be accessible from JavaScript running in an embedded Mozilla control.
22:08 < ojh> MisterN: I use DBUS too, its central to the Zero Install application delivery system that I like to use.
22:08 < MisterN> so you can freely choose :)
22:08 < MisterN> the maybe best solution: offer two APIs
22:08 < MisterN> one with soap
22:08 < MisterN> one with dbus
22:08 < MisterN> so every user will be happy
22:10 -!- sparc-kly [n=mubex@64.237.255.183] has quit ["Leaving"]
22:11 < ojh> MisterN: Perhaps. What really matters is that application developers like to use it. SOAP has the advantage of being done with libs that are already on every Linux installation and it is network transparent. So with a SOAP based service remote applications will act exactly like locally running programs. I don't think the same is true of DBUS.
22:13 < ojh> MisterN: DBUS has easy 2 way communication so some sort of reply could be generated by user interaction with the message though.
22:14 < MisterN> 2 way comm. is impossible or just hard with soap?
22:16 < ojh> MisterN: It involves leaving the socket open for and has difficult issues with threads blocking during the duration of communication. This type of thing can be done over HTTP but its not fun.
22:17 < MisterN> ojh: well then your soap API could be for simple notifications and not send any replies but your dbus API would. i'm sure they'll nicely integrate into a single mainloop
22:20 < ojh> MisterN: Yes, but I still dislike applications putting controls (buttons, links) in messages but I'm sure that others would disagree and want the feature. So a dual implementation may be best. Initial Proof of Concept in SOAP though.
22:21 < MisterN> ojh: yes, a big fat TODO will be the easiest dbus API :D
22:21 < ojh> MisterN: :-D
22:26 < ojh> MisterN: Also, for development and deployment simplicity gSOAP can't be beat. It is a source code preprocessor that adds all the gory details of SOAP for you and then generates client or server code with no special external dependencies. The gSOAP library does not need to be installed at all for deployment. It makes SOAP a very attractive communication protocol for C/C++ programmers.
22:27 < MisterN> i always say there's no "C/C++" :p
22:28 < ojh> MisterN: gSOAP works fine what ever flavor you prefer.
22:32 < ojh> MisterN: Thanks for your input on this project.
22:33 < MisterN> np
22:48 < CIA-12> rene * r13192 /trunk/target/livecd/init2: * allow init= on the kernel command line on the livecd
23:11 < rxr> hm - my latest livecd hangs on init quite strangely ...
23:12 < rxr> booting with init=/bin/bash works and even stuff like starting man (and all its formating processors) or vi ..
23:12 < rxr> it even seems to survive bonnie++ ....
23:12 < rxr> on the unionfs ...
23:12 < rxr> I wonder what's up ...
23:13 < rxr> yep - bonnie++ run on the unionfs (in qemu) finished ...
23:13 < rxr> grummel - happens on real silicon as well ...
23:40 < CIA-12> rene * r13193 /trunk/package/base/shadow/shadow.conf: * fixed shadow to not install the Makefile* files into the pam.d dir
23:43 < rxr> http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3145154&did=1
23:48 < MisterN> n8
23:48 -!- MisterN [n=MrN@p549CF7A7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Wieso gibt es keine guten Quitmessages? Jaja, diese ist auch doof."]
23:56 < morfoh> does anyody else experienced full CPU and memory utilization with an idleing xine player ?
23:56 < rxr> ohm
23:57 < rxr> with video loaded or just started ?
23:57 < morfoh> just started
23:57 < rxr> video paused that is ?
23:57 < morfoh> nothing loaded
--- Log closed Mon Nov 07 00:00:13 2005