T2 IRC Log: 2008-09-19
This is the log as captured by an IRC bot in the channel. The statements are those of the individual people and might not neccessarily reflect the policy and legal rules as set forth by the T2 SDE Project.
--- Log opened Fri Sep 19 00:00:48 2008
00:19 < Ragnarin> that sounds nice
03:53 < hikenboot> mpp hello again...I am wondering which version should i download if my host system is x86 32 bit but my destination is x86_64 hardware (For T2
03:53 < hikenboot> )
03:54 < hikenboot> oh mpp is gone anyone else able to answer the question?
05:29 -!- mpp [n=user@i53876B56.versanet.de] has joined #t2
05:29 < mpp> moin moin
05:29 < Morglet> moin
05:30 < mpp> hey Morglet
05:30 < mpp> what timezone are you in ?
05:30 < mpp> here in germany its 05:30 am
05:30 < Morglet> BST, ie. UK
05:31 < mpp> ah - cheerz mate !
05:31 < Morglet> 0430 here, dunno why I woke up so early. No doubt it was excitement over T2 ....
05:31 * Morglet chuckles
05:32 < mpp> the early bird cathes the fly, the second mouse gets the cheese !
05:32 < mpp> yea me too
05:32 < mpp> i've been doing some exciting stuff with t2
05:32 < Morglet> Ew, your mixed metaphors are going to implode :P
05:33 < Morglet> What kind of exciting stuff?
05:33 < mpp> yey you are probably right . i have done an optimized build for athlon64
05:33 < mpp> it really kicks a**
05:33 < mpp> did some benchmarking openssl gets boosted 4-5x faster
05:34 < mpp> gcc is a breeze - so faster t2-build process.
05:34 < Morglet> Oh, that's nice. I have an Athlon64 box running Gentoo atm, maybe I could find another disk and dual it with t2
05:34 < mpp> check with openssl speed before you switch to an optimized t2
05:35 < mpp> http://browse.geekbench.ca/
05:35 < mpp> you could run this bench before and after to see the difference
05:35 < Morglet> Not sure if there's a bay slot free, as it's racked. Lemme look in computer room
05:36 < mpp> k
05:41 < Morglet> Buh, none free. I'll have to do all the t2 playing on Intel boxes
05:44 < Morglet> Once I get my iSCSI nodes running though, it'll release local storage on the athlon64 box, and then I can use the freed partition for a t2 dual. That's prolly some months away though, unless iSCSI and LVM is easy to do under T2.
05:46 < Morglet> Because this first T2 build is actually on the future iSCSI node box, so I'm killing two birds with one stone by doing my introductory playing with T2 on this particular machine.
05:46 < mpp> to be hones - i have absolutely no clue if it works and how - on t2
05:46 < Morglet> You mean nobody here is using LVM?
05:47 < mpp> i'm sure somebody does - i don't currently
05:48 < Morglet> Oh dear. That must mean that your initramfs isn't LVM-aware :-(
05:48 < mpp> sorry - ?
05:49 < mpp> the initramfs conains the lvm modules
05:49 < mpp> so it should work for booting up
05:49 < Morglet> Well typically moving to LVM means a lot of messing around with initramfs scripts, which is unpleasant.
05:49 < mpp> ahm.... it should be straightforward with t2
05:50 < Morglet> Hope so, hehe :-)
05:54 < Morglet> Still early days for me though. I'm still trying to figure out elementary things like installing packages. Eg. what's the equivalent of "emerge --pretend", so that I can see what the deps intend to install before the desired package?
06:06 < mpp> there are dependency files that come with each package
06:06 < mpp> e.g. /var/adm/dependencies on an installed system
06:07 < mpp> or t2-trunk/packacge/..../package/package.cache
06:07 < mpp> for the build host
06:09 < Morglet> Yeah, but how do you tell which dependencies are not currently satisfied in the install?
06:12 < Morglet> I assume that scripts/Emerge-Pkg will install dependencies first, but how do you tell in advance what it's intending to do? A package install could require 500 KDE packages to be installed first, for example --- that's something one needs to know.
06:17 < Morglet> Oh, maybe -dry-run does it
06:18 < Morglet> I feel writing a HOWTO coming up ... once I understand how T2 hangs together. :-) Which I don't currently.
06:24 < Morglet> The t2 "workflow" isn't obvious to me yet. In Gentoo it's just 1) find pkg candidates by string search on part of a name; 2) pick one; 3) check the its currently missing dependencies; 4) if they're sane and won't take all week, emerge the pkg.
06:26 < Morglet> I can't quite figure out the equivalent T2 workflow though, because I can't see how to ask (i) what is my currently installed pkg version and the latest one available? And (ii) what dependencies are not yet satisfied in case I decide to emerge the latest one available?
06:28 < Morglet> And some stuff just isn't making sense atm. Eg. I just emerged Lua, and it emerged dietlibc first. Yet, dietlibc isn't in Lua's dependencies.
06:28 < Morglet> So I don't understand what's happening.
06:36 < mpp> dependencies are generate on the fly
06:36 < mpp> have a look at the t2 handbook
06:37 < mpp> scripts/Emerge-Pkg installs on a running host and detects dependencies at runtime
06:38 < Morglet> yeah I know, but I was looking for how to determine dependency checks that fail *without* actually doing the install.
06:38 < Morglet> Trying -dry-un
06:38 < Morglet> Trying -dry-run
06:39 < mpp> ah.
06:39 < mpp> it filters the configure messages of a package
06:40 < Morglet> It worked I think
06:40 < mpp> so mostly these deps are suffice to do a dep check
06:42 < Morglet> Yep, thay seems to do what I want. Eg. -dry-run luasocket shows me two scheduled to install, but only one package appeared as an additional dependency:
06:42 < Morglet> checking findutils ... New version (4.2.31 -> 4.4.0). Added.
06:42 < Morglet> Yep, it's doign as expected. Cool
06:49 < mpp> yes i told rxr already that the dep files need to be updated
06:49 < mpp> i gues its comming soon
06:49 < mpp> you can replace them by yourself on your local svn tree
06:50 < mpp> mpp is satisfied now that his t2-build host is running on fully optmized athlon64 target
06:50 < mpp> :-)
06:50 < Morglet> Wow! OK, "Generic" is definitely not what I want, from the output of -list-missing lol, the kitchen sink is in there. I guess I need a custom one.
06:51 < Morglet> Gratz :-)
06:51 < mpp> yes but its quite easy
06:51 < mpp> i went with generic-minimal and added packages for a server-style target
06:52 < mpp> you'll see - it's fun
06:52 < mpp> best part is : the optimized build is really speedy
06:52 < Morglet> Yeah, enjoying it so far. The manual is kinda confusing because it's not a target user's manual, but a target creation manual, afaics
06:53 < mpp> agreed !
06:53 < mpp> i also had to get used to some stuff - most things clear up reading the manuall and give it some shot on a test-machine
06:54 < Morglet> So elementary stuff like the workflow I was talking about isn't in there (except between the lines). Yet, one has to know that before one can sensibly build a target ... so I guess there's a manual missing. Or at least a chapter.
06:55 < mpp> you are right
06:55 < mpp> rxr welcomes contribs
06:55 < Morglet> Oh I'll contrib alright, unless I find a showstopper in T2. But that seems very unlikely.
06:56 < Morglet> And I guess in principle I could so something about showstoppers too, if any.
06:57 < Morglet> You may actually have a showstopper: not enough people in the community to keep up with the appearance of FOSS packages. 7 people isn't enough, by at least an order of magnitude :-)
06:58 < Morglet> Maybe that smilie should have been a ":-("
06:58 < mpp> agreed .
06:58 < mpp> anyways t2 is here and i'm thankfull.period.
07:00 < Morglet> Hey, maybe it's possible to address the lack of manpower simply by having a conversion system from Gentoo ebuilds.
07:04 < Morglet> Question: to build a minimalist X11 system (eg. absolutely no Gnome/KDE desktop stuff, and only bare essential X utils), what target should I start from?
07:05 < mpp> generic
07:05 < mpp> minimal-x-basic-desktop
07:05 < mpp> gentoo import ?
07:06 < Morglet> Jeez no, not at all. Download shows it bring in all kinds of crap, like xfce etc
07:06 < Morglet> Generic I mean
07:06 < mpp> i gues rxr will reject - which totally makes sence
07:06 < mpp> minimal-x
07:06 < mpp> onlay
07:07 < Morglet> I don't see a "minimal-x" target in Config.
07:07 < mpp> hold on a sec
07:08 < mpp> generic -> package template
07:08 < mpp> minimalistic and x.org
07:08 < mpp> that should do
07:10 < Morglet> Neat, I set that, checking Download
07:12 < mpp> :-)
07:12 < mpp> make sure to have ccache activated for speedup
07:13 < Morglet> Eeek, no, that's as evil as hell! It brings in Gnome, KDE, and a ton of random X desktop applications.
07:14 < mpp> did you have the right template
07:14 < mpp> ?
07:14 < Morglet> Someone's idea of "minimalist X" is really bloated
07:14 < mpp> i don't think so
07:14 < Morglet> Generic + minimal-xorg
07:14 < mpp> there are some libs for dependencies
07:15 < mpp> in minimal x the surely is no kde or gnome
07:15 < mpp> promised !
07:15 < mpp> you can grab an iso from dl2.t2-project.org to check on
07:16 < mpp> http://dl2.t2-project.org/stable/7.0-rc2/minimal-x86_64/t2-7.0-rc2-minimal-x86_64.iso
07:16 < Morglet> scripts/Download -list-missing | grep kde | wc -l
07:16 < Morglet> 34
07:17 < mpp> strange
07:17 < Morglet> That's the iso release I actually built this t2 from, yeah.
07:17 < mpp> so does it have kde ?
07:18 < Morglet> scripts/Download -list-missing | grep kde | grep base
07:18 < Morglet> download/mirror/k/kdebase-4.1.1.tar.bz2
07:18 < Morglet> download/mirror/k/kdebase-runtime-4.1.1.tar.bz2
07:18 < Morglet> download/mirror/k/kdebase-workspace-4.1.1.tar.bz2
07:18 < mpp> ah i see
07:18 < mpp> well have it the other way around
07:18 < mpp> take the minimal as base and add packages as you wish
07:21 < Morglet> I think there may be a bug. I did that (just Generic + minimal, no xorg), and kdebase is still in Download. That can't be right, surely.
07:22 < Morglet> I'm going to try to find where Generic is defined.
07:24 < Morglet> Maybe it's still cached from the previous minimal-xorg selection?
07:24 < mpp> could be
07:24 < mpp> try:
07:25 < mpp> scripts/Create-ErrList -cfg whatever -newremove
07:25 < Morglet> Is "whatever" something I have to supply?
07:26 < Morglet> Like the minimal-xorg, or the generic?
07:26 < Morglet> Or is the argument a filepath?
07:26 < mpp> what scripts/Config did you run ?
07:26 < mpp> it should be like:
07:27 < mpp> scripts/Confg -cfg mycg - otherwise its "default" config in wich case you can skip the -cfg part
07:27 < Morglet> K, skipping
07:29 < Morglet> Looks like it's bugged, because it thinks there's a cross-build occurring:
07:29 < Morglet> scripts/Create-ErrList -newremove
07:29 < Morglet> grep: build/default-8.0-trunk-generic-x86-i386-cross/var/adm/packages/: No such file or directory
07:30 < Morglet> ls -l build
07:30 < Morglet> total 4K
07:30 < Morglet> drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 2008-09-19 04:15 default-8.0-trunk-generic-x86-64
07:30 < Morglet> Ie. no "cross" :-)
07:30 < mpp> could you please remove the config/default
07:31 < mpp> and the build/default*
07:31 < mpp> and have a new config ?
07:31 < Morglet> Sure
07:31 < mpp> okay
07:31 < mpp> you haven't start a big build procedure yet ?
07:35 < Morglet> Nope, not yet, just individual packages and their deps. And just as well I haven't, else I'd have built Gnome and KDE too, lol
07:35 < mpp> right
07:35 < Morglet> OK, I've removed those two dirs, redoing Config
07:35 < mpp> okay you should be having your first build by the end of the day :-)
07:35 < mpp> what cpu are you building on ?
07:36 < Morglet> Core2 Duo
07:36 < mpp> cool
07:36 < mpp> should be breeze
07:37 < mpp> i also have a core2 duo machine
07:37 < mpp> it builds really fast
07:37 < Morglet> I see that the arch has become x86-64. The original install set it to x86
07:38 < mpp> ah yes
07:38 < mpp> you should choose precisely the target architecture / cpu
07:39 < Morglet> I think I'll change it back to x86, else flash don't work in firefox.
07:39 < mpp> hm...
07:40 < mpp> i did the performance comparison between x86 and x86-64
07:40 < mpp> ill stay with x86-64
07:40 < mpp> definetly
07:40 < Morglet> Not how I'd like the world to be, but there really is no option unless one wants to detach from the world by never watching Youtube.
07:43 < Morglet> Someone needs to drop a bomb on Adobe, damn annoying company, not releasing a 64-bit plugin simply because they don't want to.
07:43 < mpp> ill check on that later
07:44 < mpp> http://www.jamesward.com/wordpress/2006/12/06/flash-9-on-64bit-linux-in-2-commands/
07:44 < Morglet> Looking
07:44 < mpp> i remember it working on 64bit
07:46 < Morglet> That's from 2006, and I recall it no longer working. But going to try right now on my Athlon64.
07:47 < Morglet> 1st good sign: netscape-flash is no longer masked on amd64 :-)))))))))) So his first step not needed.
07:51 < mpp> mpp recharged caffeine-batterys
07:51 < mpp> :-)))
07:51 < Morglet> Bah, you're cheating. Gonna recharhe mine now too :-)
07:51 < mpp> you do that !
07:59 < Morglet> Nope, sadly Youtube still doesn't see a viable Flash player after that installation.
08:00 < Morglet> Pity. I like my Athlon64 box, even though it's a bit old (just 3200+). Would be nice if that worked on it.
08:02 < Morglet> Maybe I need a browser upgrade, going to try.
08:06 < Morglet> Bah, the binary ff 3.0.1 is a 32-bit ff, no 64-bit available. I really don't want to compile it just now, that'll take hours.
08:07 < Morglet> But I guess I can avoid the issue altogether by using the binary browser. Don't like that though.
08:10 < mpp> you could build the browser for a 32bit target
08:10 < mpp> and have the rest 64bit
08:10 < mpp> 32bit binary do run on 64bit machines
08:11 < mpp> so it's quite easy
08:12 < Morglet> Only easy if their use of external libraries is limited to those libs that have 32-bit "emul" versions.
08:15 < mpp> correct !
08:16 < mpp> mpp is cross compiling a target from scratch
08:16 < mpp> there was an error yesterday with embutils
08:16 < Morglet> Well the 32-bit binary ff3 worked on the Athlon64 Gentoo, but really must replace it by the compiled version when I have time. And then Flash will prolly break again. Woes ...
08:17 < mpp> so i need to reproduce this one and report to rxr
08:17 < mpp> that sucks
08:17 < mpp> im mean the ff3 stuff
08:19 < Morglet> Well you may be able to do better than Gentoo there since you can define 32-bit targets more easily. I'll try sticking to x86_64 on this Core2, and we'll see how it goes.
08:19 < Morglet> If Flash breaks, I'll compromise my principles and run the 32-bit binary FF here too ;-)))))
08:20 < mpp> so good luck !
08:20 < Morglet> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80wIpeKGWdg
08:20 < Morglet> :-)
08:21 < Morglet> Hehe. Well things are looking very good here so far
08:21 < Morglet> Komuso is an amazing live player in SL
08:22 < mpp> ahmm.. sorry not my style
08:22 < Morglet> Talking of SL and 64-bit, I'll be wanting to run their 32-bit client on this too, so will be battling those emul libs, grrrrrr
08:22 < mpp> but you enjoy it !
08:23 < Morglet> You don't like blues? Heathen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;-)
08:24 < mpp> .... what can i say
08:24 < Morglet> Just apologize :P
08:24 < Morglet> (kidding, hehe)
08:24 < mpp> right.
08:24 < mpp> mpp is dob '74
08:25 < Morglet> dob?
08:25 < mpp> day of birth
08:25 < Morglet> Oh, gotcha
08:25 < mpp> so im more into classical / electronic stuff
08:25 < mpp> it has always been my thing
08:25 < mpp> but anyways
08:25 < Morglet> I play MIDI keyboards here. Using the word "play" loosely.
08:26 < mpp> do what you like - we all shoud
08:26 < mpp> right ...
08:26 < mpp> kinda freestyle ?
08:26 < mpp> improvised ..
08:26 < Morglet> No, just mean that I can't play, haha ;-)
08:27 < mpp> oh well you can spell the word play and midi - thats a start !
08:29 < Morglet> I have broad tastes anyway, and there's plenty electronica in there too, at least in rock genre. Eg:
08:29 < Morglet> http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/953
08:30 < mpp> whats rock ... you will now better than i do
08:30 < Morglet> Or if you prefer German ...
08:30 < Morglet> http://www.jamendo.com/de/album/953
08:30 < mpp> gotta be kidding me ...
08:31 < Morglet> Just the website text, not the music, lol
08:31 < mpp> yes ... so how's the build doin mate ?
08:31 < Morglet> I'm wiedergabing it ...
08:32 < mpp> you speak german...
08:32 < mpp> :-)
08:32 < Morglet> Nah. Did one semester's course, learned nothing
08:33 < mpp> you gave it try - that's what counts
08:34 < Morglet> My french is better, and my spanish is good, so not monolingual anyway.
08:34 < mpp> ola senior
08:34 < mpp> com es ta ?
08:35 < Morglet> Bien gracias, y tu?
08:35 < mpp> mui bien
08:35 < Morglet> muy
08:35 < mpp> or somethin like that
08:36 < mpp> speaing of spanish- i really like latin house stlye
08:36 < mpp> like on www.di.fm - house
08:37 < Morglet> Grrr ..... after the new Config with generic+minimal (no xorg), KDE is still in there.
08:37 < mpp> what have done Morglet ...
08:39 < Morglet> Maybe I'm missing some step. All I do is go into the right T2 dir (I'm working from t2-trunk now, though the CD install was t2-7.0_rc2), run Config, and then check Download -list-missing | grep kdebase.
08:39 < mpp> maybe you'd better ask rxr about that one
08:39 < Morglet> Is that wrong?
08:39 < mpp> Download -list-missing ?
08:39 < mpp> you don't need that
08:39 < Morglet> Teyp
08:39 < Morglet> Yep
08:40 < mpp> just scripts/Build-Target
08:40 < Morglet> Uhhhhh
08:40 < mpp> it pulls all the packages automaticly
08:40 < Morglet> Well see, the manual is bad. It says to Download after config
08:41 < mpp> yes -yes - get the positive side of tt2
08:41 < koan> I first did that too, but somewhere in the manual is mentioned that you don't need the download step since version 6.0
08:41 < mpp> the manual needs rework as dozens of other thins
08:41 < Morglet> Checking Build-Target options for the equivalent to -missing
08:41 < mpp> you don't need any options
08:41 < mpp> jsut Build/Target -cfg whatever (maybe default)
08:42 < mpp> afk
08:42 < Morglet> I *always* need to know what it's about to do, if it's going to be long.
08:42 < Morglet> Otherwise I can't make an informed decision whether to do it.
08:45 < Morglet> When I did Download -list-missing, I saved myself hours and gigabytes by not downloading KDE and Gnome. Information is priceless.
08:47 < Morglet> If Build-Target is going to build KDE and Gnome and their apps now, despite using "minimal" and not "minimal-xorg", then I'm screwed. And I have no way of knowing in advance because Build-Target has no -dry-run option or similar.
08:49 < Morglet> Erk, Build-Target it's bringing in a new kernel. I wanted to do that later.
08:53 < mpp> hm..
08:53 < mpp> something is wrong with your config
08:54 < mpp> the kde gnome stuff could be more or less some libs
08:54 < mpp> at least it should be
08:54 < Morglet> Is the config in a file somewhere, so that I don't have to use that ncurses tool?
08:54 < mpp> can you post your config on pastebin.com
08:54 < mpp> of course
08:54 < mpp> its in config/mycfg/config
08:55 < Morglet> Super, looking at it
08:56 < mpp> yeah reading the handbook helps a lot
08:56 < Morglet> That's why I was using Download, because I was reading the manual ;-)
08:57 < mpp> could you paste your config so i can have a look @ it ?
08:58 < mpp> if you are ok with this
08:59 < Morglet> Looking at config, don't think it's sensitive
09:04 < Morglet> Yep, seems innocuous. Which is the preferred pastebin here?
09:05 < mpp> it's what i suggested
09:05 < mpp> you can paste post it as you like
09:07 < rxr> re
09:08 < Morglet> http://pastebin.com/d613fabaa
09:08 < mpp> good morning rxr
09:08 < Morglet> Hi rxr
09:08 < mpp> looks normal
09:09 < mpp> wonder why it pulls off kde and gnome
09:09 < Morglet> rxr, we were trying to figure out why Download -list-missing lists kdebase, despite generic+minimal not containing xorg. Any ideas?
09:12 < rxr> I think list-missing lists everything missing
09:12 < Morglet> It seems I have to sit here and monitor Build-Target, no matter how long it takes, in case it tries to build kdebase, since there is no -dry-run option.
09:13 < rxr> why would you want to set there ?
09:13 < mpp> yes
09:13 < rxr> sit
09:13 < Morglet> Because I don't want KDE
09:13 < mpp> Download -required should be enough
09:13 < rxr> yes, -required fetches all that is selected
09:14 < Morglet> I'm using the default atm, not -required. Should I abort it then, since it'll bring in KDE?
09:14 < mpp> yes you should
09:14 < Morglet> kk
09:15 < mpp> @rxr do you have anyone near you with access to a rootserver / big pipe ?
09:15 < mpp> maybe you could get the iso images temporary on a high bw connection
09:15 < rxr> nope, havent
09:16 < mpp> my rsync is choking on your bw
09:16 < mpp> okay
09:16 < rxr> well - just let it running
09:16 < mpp> allright
09:17 < mpp> so yesterday i took a closer look on the deps-stuff
09:17 < mpp> i have made preliminary analysis of the deps created and the scripts/ wich produce / update them
09:18 < mpp> as pointed out on irc yesterday , the number of mutual deps is missleading
09:18 < mpp> this is probably due to the pkgsel stuff
09:19 < mpp> normally 00-dirtree as root point of the dep graph should suffice.
09:20 < mpp> the dep files are populated way to much during Emerge
09:20 < CIA-8> rene * r30503 /trunk/package/scientific/mpfr/mpfr.desc: * updated mpfr (2.3.1 -> 2.3.2)
09:24 < CIA-8> rene * r30504 /trunk/package/graphic/libraw/libraw.desc: * updated libraw (0.5.4 -> 0.6.0)
09:24 < CIA-8> rene * r30505 /trunk/package/filesystem/libisofs/libisofs.desc: * updated libisofs (0.6.6 -> 0.6.8)
09:25 < CIA-8> rene * r30506 /trunk/package/security/libgcrypt/libgcrypt.desc: * updated libgcrypt (1.4.2 -> 1.4.3)
09:26 < CIA-8> rene * r30507 /trunk/package/xorg/xf86-input-evdev/xf86-input-evdev.desc: * updated xf86-input-evdev (2.0.4 -> 2.0.5)
09:39 < mtr> re
09:41 < mpp> hey mtr
09:41 < Morglet> Found a bug. Download is sensitive to the order of -required and -list-missing arguments. Bad flag handling.
09:44 < mpp> possibly
09:44 < mpp> if you're into bash take a look
09:44 < mpp> -required does the job pretty well
09:44 < Morglet> Also, the -required fails. "scripts/Download -list-missing -required" still shows kdebase, despite no xorg being requested.
09:45 < mpp> hmm...
09:45 < mpp> i'll check on anoter machine
09:46 < rxr> -I think -list-missing always shows the files missing from all poassible files t2 could download
09:46 < Morglet> Ouch, hehe
09:46 < Morglet> If so, another bug. I guess rxr would know?
09:46 < rxr> the -list-missing is buggy or you found another bug ?
09:48 < Morglet> Don't know if it's a new one: "scripts/Download -list-missing -required" shows kdebase in its download list, despite the config being "generic+minimal" (no xorg)
09:48 < rxr> Morglet: -list-missing is hard-wired to show all files T2 could download that are missing
09:48 < rxr> so if you have 0 packages selected, -list-missiing still shows every possible download
09:49 < Morglet> rxr: righto. So how do I tell what's in the set that WILL be downloaded?
09:49 < rxr> (don't care and let t2 do it's build work?)
09:49 < rxr> ok - well - if this is interesting for people we could indeed just improve Download to take the specified selection into acount for -list-missing
09:50 < mpp> i agree with rxr
09:50 < mpp> seems usefull to take that into account
09:50 < Morglet> rxr: can't "not care", if one wants to create a minimalist system. There might not even be disk space for KDE after all.
09:51 < rxr> t2 will not download it - it is just -list-missing not doing what you think it does
09:51 < rxr> you can take a look at the package selection in the expert section - custom package selection and then there is some "show current package selection"
09:51 < rxr> or via: grep '^X' config/default/packages
09:51 < Morglet> Thanks, looking.
09:52 < rxr> but: I can also schedule improving the Download scripts ASAP
09:52 < rxr> btw. patches always welcome
09:53 < Morglet> On a source-based system where it can take a long time to build things, and where it can take 20 times the space to build something vs the size of the end result, it's very important to know what WILL be done in advance. :-)
09:55 < Morglet> Patches from someone who is just beginning to understand T2 should NOT be welcome, I assure you. ;-) Although I'm happy to contribute once I'm beyond the day-2 noob stage ;-)
09:55 < rxr> :-)
09:55 < rxr> the Download script is not too complex
09:56 < Morglet> Well I can certainly sort out the noddy bug about it being sensitive to the order of its arguments. Lemme look.
09:56 < Morglet> Since that requires no knowledge of T2 ;-)
10:25 -!- hwinkel [n=hwinkel@port-87-193-170-219.static.qsc.de] has joined #t2
11:06 < mpp> hey Morglet
11:06 < mpp> how is building ?
11:06 < Morglet> Hola
11:06 < mpp> ola senior
11:07 < Morglet> I'm not building, I'm hacking the Download script. I guess I should have started the build, but have a one-track mind.
11:07 < mpp> capiche
11:07 < mpp> i mean comprende
11:08 < Morglet> 'o' on th end of that :-)
11:08 < mpp> yea mi spanglish is kinda messy - i know
11:08 < Morglet> It's probably correct in French though, if "je" can be dropped :-)
11:09 < koan> je comprends
11:09 < Morglet> Ah, no 'e', righto :-)
11:10 < mpp> koan mon ami
11:10 < mpp> sa va ?
11:10 < koan> ça va oui
11:11 < mpp> okay mpp switches to plain english
11:11 < koan> :-)
11:11 < Morglet> Hey koan, we're you on OpenMoko?
11:11 < Morglet> weren't*
11:11 < koan> no, I find it a very interesting project, but I don't have anything to do with it :-)
11:12 < Morglet> KK, someone with a similar name
11:12 < koan> ah Koen Kooi maybe?
11:12 < Morglet> 2nd name doesn't ring a bell no
11:13 < koan> he is a OpenMoko guy, I once heard a talk of him
11:13 < Morglet> Oh, koen! Yes!
11:13 < Morglet> Haha, no koan :-)
11:13 < Morglet> One letter can make a lot of difference, hehe
11:13 < koan> :-)
11:13 < mpp> hey anybody now's how to view chm files on linux
11:14 < Morglet> Chemical ML?
11:14 < mpp> koan is zen - zen is koan
11:14 < mpp> eeek
11:14 < mpp> chemical ...
11:14 < mpp> ill try
11:15 < Morglet> Chime was a format like chem ML, I used to play with that --- purely to display caffeine molecules on the screen to frighten bosses away :P
11:15 < mpp> hm... chm2pdf that seems just what i need
11:17 < Morglet> Oh, Microsoft help files. Never had anything to do with them, since the only help that works there is a grenade.
11:17 < mpp> yea tell me about it
11:18 < mpp> as the first window opens - storm blows into the hole system - afterstorm - clear blue screen :-)))
11:18 < tfl0pz> chmview?
11:19 < mpp> yea found it finally - chmsee or kchmview or .....
11:19 < Morglet> Buh, I've been up 6+ hours and not had anything to eat yet, t2 frenzy is getting to me. Kitchen, biab
11:19 < mpp> finally apt-cache does do something meaningful
11:20 < mpp> cheerz
11:35 < Morglet> Has that flash-only mini-laptop that Dell announced to compete with the Eeeeeee been released yet?
11:40 < Morglet> Was just thinking that T2's target system would probably make it a good candidate to build systems for those wee machines.
11:42 * rxr is wating for an updated HP MiniNote ...
11:42 < rxr> with bigger screan and fater CPU than the aging VIA-C7 they ship in the current model (that get's too hot anyway)
11:45 < Morglet> Haven't seen the spec on that. Half my local friends have Eeeeee PCs though
11:46 < Morglet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hp_mini-note
11:46 < Morglet> Cute
11:48 < Morglet> Eeek, extremely expensive, 550 quid here
11:55 < Morglet> The laptop vendors are taking us for a ride I think -- they've turned that new very low-cost, diskless PC sector that Asus began into just another mid-range niche.
11:55 < Morglet> Create new buzz, then turn the prices up :-(
11:56 < Morglet> And they're probably all made by the same Chinese company for $100 anyway.
12:10 < Morglet> Taiwan makes 55% of the notebooks for the "quality brand" PC "manufacturers" in the west. Odds are the Mini-Note is made by Quanta or one of the others.
12:14 < rxr> I find the eeepc a little too fragile and cheapish ...
12:15 < rxr> the mini note is to some degree more solid and higher quality plastics and the like
12:15 < rxr> just needs a 10" screen and a modern CPU ...
12:15 < Morglet> Aye, I like HP sturdiness. Their calculators were legend.
12:16 < Morglet> My current top box is an HP, 8 cores in just 1U. DL140 G3
12:17 < Morglet> I'm not too happy with the Gentoo build I put on it. Hopefully I can work out a good target for it on T2.
12:17 < Morglet> It's intended as a virt'd server.
12:21 < Morglet> Blast, I have so many machines in the work queue: the two iSCSI boxes for storage backends, the fileserver per se, two firewalls to replace my current inflexible mess, and the new workstation box that currently has a dreadful Ubuntu on it.
12:21 < Morglet> Distressing workload.
12:23 < Morglet> Plus the virt'd DL140 which provides the front-end services.
12:23 < Morglet>
12:41 < rxr> sounds like much fun :-)
12:41 < Morglet> No, it sounds like much work
12:50 < Morglet> And we don't seem to have the modules and tools for my job #1 in the T2 repository yet, so got some importing to do before I can even start:
12:50 < Morglet> * sys-block/iscsi-initiator-core-tools
12:50 < Morglet> * sys-block/iscsitarget
12:50 < Morglet> * sys-block/open-iscsi
12:59 < rxr> oh - ok
12:59 -!- koan [n=koan@unaffiliated/koan] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
12:59 [Users #t2]
12:59 [@ChanServ] [ Dallur ] [ felanha ] [ LMJ ] [ mqueiros] [ rxr ]
12:59 [ axionix ] [ dsoul ] [ hikenboot] [ Morglet] [ mtr ] [ tfl0pz]
12:59 [ CIA-8 ] [ Enqlave] [ hwinkel ] [ mpp ] [ Ragnarin] [ TobiX ]
12:59 -!- Irssi: #t2: Total of 18 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 17 normal]
12:59 -!- koan [n=koan@unaffiliated/koan] has joined #t2
14:13 [Users #t2]
14:13 [@ChanServ] [ dsoul ] [ hwinkel] [ mpp ] [ rxr ]
14:13 [ axionix ] [ Enqlave ] [ koan ] [ mqueiros] [ tfl0pz]
14:13 [ CIA-8 ] [ felanha ] [ LMJ ] [ mtr ] [ TobiX ]
14:13 [ Dallur ] [ hikenboot] [ Morglet] [ Ragnarin]
14:13 -!- Irssi: #t2: Total of 19 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 18 normal]
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15:02 < rxr> http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2007/09/googles-server-names.html
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16:16 -!- mPP is now known as mpp
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17:37 -!- Netsplit over, joins: koan
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19:42 < rxr> http://linux-iscsi.sourceforge.net/
20:15 < mpp> hey rxr
20:15 < mpp> still online ?
21:25 < CIA-8> rene * r30508 /trunk/target/archivista/rootfs/home/archivista/usb-backup.in:
21:25 < CIA-8> * improved multiple shortcoming of finding a removable USB device
21:25 < CIA-8> during archivista USB backup
21:57 < koan> what is the archivista target?
21:59 < mpp> for scanning i think
21:59 < mpp> its on exactcode.de
22:09 < rxr> the archivista target is a product of Archivista, Switzerland: http://www.archivista.ch
22:09 < rxr> (not an ExactCODE one)
22:12 < mpp> ah sorry my fault
22:12 < mpp> hey rxr short tip for me
22:13 < mpp> scripts/Emerge ... -repository xorg
22:13 < mpp> should pull the whole xorg repo ?
22:13 < mpp> ah - hold on a sec
22:13 < mpp> the /etc/SDE-CONFIG/ needs to updated
22:13 < mpp> right..
22:13 < mpp> forgot
22:14 < mpp> Emerge-Pkg fooled me into automagic :-)
22:14 < mpp> case solved
22:49 -!- dsoul [i=darksoul@insomniac.pl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
23:09 < mpp> Hey Morglet
23:09 < mpp> are you with us ?
23:20 -!- mpp [n=user@i53877879.versanet.de] has quit ["good night - good fight"]
23:43 -!- DuckFault [n=DuckFaul@rrcs-71-43-244-114.se.biz.rr.com] has joined #t2
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--- Log closed Sat Sep 20 00:00:54 2008
00:19 < Ragnarin> that sounds nice
03:53 < hikenboot> mpp hello again...I am wondering which version should i download if my host system is x86 32 bit but my destination is x86_64 hardware (For T2
03:53 < hikenboot> )
03:54 < hikenboot> oh mpp is gone anyone else able to answer the question?
05:29 -!- mpp [n=user@i53876B56.versanet.de] has joined #t2
05:29 < mpp> moin moin
05:29 < Morglet> moin
05:30 < mpp> hey Morglet
05:30 < mpp> what timezone are you in ?
05:30 < mpp> here in germany its 05:30 am
05:30 < Morglet> BST, ie. UK
05:31 < mpp> ah - cheerz mate !
05:31 < Morglet> 0430 here, dunno why I woke up so early. No doubt it was excitement over T2 ....
05:31 * Morglet chuckles
05:32 < mpp> the early bird cathes the fly, the second mouse gets the cheese !
05:32 < mpp> yea me too
05:32 < mpp> i've been doing some exciting stuff with t2
05:32 < Morglet> Ew, your mixed metaphors are going to implode :P
05:33 < Morglet> What kind of exciting stuff?
05:33 < mpp> yey you are probably right . i have done an optimized build for athlon64
05:33 < mpp> it really kicks a**
05:33 < mpp> did some benchmarking openssl gets boosted 4-5x faster
05:34 < mpp> gcc is a breeze - so faster t2-build process.
05:34 < Morglet> Oh, that's nice. I have an Athlon64 box running Gentoo atm, maybe I could find another disk and dual it with t2
05:34 < mpp> check with openssl speed before you switch to an optimized t2
05:35 < mpp> http://browse.geekbench.ca/
05:35 < mpp> you could run this bench before and after to see the difference
05:35 < Morglet> Not sure if there's a bay slot free, as it's racked. Lemme look in computer room
05:36 < mpp> k
05:41 < Morglet> Buh, none free. I'll have to do all the t2 playing on Intel boxes
05:44 < Morglet> Once I get my iSCSI nodes running though, it'll release local storage on the athlon64 box, and then I can use the freed partition for a t2 dual. That's prolly some months away though, unless iSCSI and LVM is easy to do under T2.
05:46 < Morglet> Because this first T2 build is actually on the future iSCSI node box, so I'm killing two birds with one stone by doing my introductory playing with T2 on this particular machine.
05:46 < mpp> to be hones - i have absolutely no clue if it works and how - on t2
05:46 < Morglet> You mean nobody here is using LVM?
05:47 < mpp> i'm sure somebody does - i don't currently
05:48 < Morglet> Oh dear. That must mean that your initramfs isn't LVM-aware :-(
05:48 < mpp> sorry - ?
05:49 < mpp> the initramfs conains the lvm modules
05:49 < mpp> so it should work for booting up
05:49 < Morglet> Well typically moving to LVM means a lot of messing around with initramfs scripts, which is unpleasant.
05:49 < mpp> ahm.... it should be straightforward with t2
05:50 < Morglet> Hope so, hehe :-)
05:54 < Morglet> Still early days for me though. I'm still trying to figure out elementary things like installing packages. Eg. what's the equivalent of "emerge --pretend", so that I can see what the deps intend to install before the desired package?
06:06 < mpp> there are dependency files that come with each package
06:06 < mpp> e.g. /var/adm/dependencies on an installed system
06:07 < mpp> or t2-trunk/packacge/..../package/package.cache
06:07 < mpp> for the build host
06:09 < Morglet> Yeah, but how do you tell which dependencies are not currently satisfied in the install?
06:12 < Morglet> I assume that scripts/Emerge-Pkg will install dependencies first, but how do you tell in advance what it's intending to do? A package install could require 500 KDE packages to be installed first, for example --- that's something one needs to know.
06:17 < Morglet> Oh, maybe -dry-run does it
06:18 < Morglet> I feel writing a HOWTO coming up ... once I understand how T2 hangs together. :-) Which I don't currently.
06:24 < Morglet> The t2 "workflow" isn't obvious to me yet. In Gentoo it's just 1) find pkg candidates by string search on part of a name; 2) pick one; 3) check the its currently missing dependencies; 4) if they're sane and won't take all week, emerge the pkg.
06:26 < Morglet> I can't quite figure out the equivalent T2 workflow though, because I can't see how to ask (i) what is my currently installed pkg version and the latest one available? And (ii) what dependencies are not yet satisfied in case I decide to emerge the latest one available?
06:28 < Morglet> And some stuff just isn't making sense atm. Eg. I just emerged Lua, and it emerged dietlibc first. Yet, dietlibc isn't in Lua's dependencies.
06:28 < Morglet> So I don't understand what's happening.
06:36 < mpp> dependencies are generate on the fly
06:36 < mpp> have a look at the t2 handbook
06:37 < mpp> scripts/Emerge-Pkg installs on a running host and detects dependencies at runtime
06:38 < Morglet> yeah I know, but I was looking for how to determine dependency checks that fail *without* actually doing the install.
06:38 < Morglet> Trying -dry-un
06:38 < Morglet> Trying -dry-run
06:39 < mpp> ah.
06:39 < mpp> it filters the configure messages of a package
06:40 < Morglet> It worked I think
06:40 < mpp> so mostly these deps are suffice to do a dep check
06:42 < Morglet> Yep, thay seems to do what I want. Eg. -dry-run luasocket shows me two scheduled to install, but only one package appeared as an additional dependency:
06:42 < Morglet> checking findutils ... New version (4.2.31 -> 4.4.0). Added.
06:42 < Morglet> Yep, it's doign as expected. Cool
06:49 < mpp> yes i told rxr already that the dep files need to be updated
06:49 < mpp> i gues its comming soon
06:49 < mpp> you can replace them by yourself on your local svn tree
06:50 < mpp> mpp is satisfied now that his t2-build host is running on fully optmized athlon64 target
06:50 < mpp> :-)
06:50 < Morglet> Wow! OK, "Generic" is definitely not what I want, from the output of -list-missing lol, the kitchen sink is in there. I guess I need a custom one.
06:51 < Morglet> Gratz :-)
06:51 < mpp> yes but its quite easy
06:51 < mpp> i went with generic-minimal and added packages for a server-style target
06:52 < mpp> you'll see - it's fun
06:52 < mpp> best part is : the optimized build is really speedy
06:52 < Morglet> Yeah, enjoying it so far. The manual is kinda confusing because it's not a target user's manual, but a target creation manual, afaics
06:53 < mpp> agreed !
06:53 < mpp> i also had to get used to some stuff - most things clear up reading the manuall and give it some shot on a test-machine
06:54 < Morglet> So elementary stuff like the workflow I was talking about isn't in there (except between the lines). Yet, one has to know that before one can sensibly build a target ... so I guess there's a manual missing. Or at least a chapter.
06:55 < mpp> you are right
06:55 < mpp> rxr welcomes contribs
06:55 < Morglet> Oh I'll contrib alright, unless I find a showstopper in T2. But that seems very unlikely.
06:56 < Morglet> And I guess in principle I could so something about showstoppers too, if any.
06:57 < Morglet> You may actually have a showstopper: not enough people in the community to keep up with the appearance of FOSS packages. 7 people isn't enough, by at least an order of magnitude :-)
06:58 < Morglet> Maybe that smilie should have been a ":-("
06:58 < mpp> agreed .
06:58 < mpp> anyways t2 is here and i'm thankfull.period.
07:00 < Morglet> Hey, maybe it's possible to address the lack of manpower simply by having a conversion system from Gentoo ebuilds.
07:04 < Morglet> Question: to build a minimalist X11 system (eg. absolutely no Gnome/KDE desktop stuff, and only bare essential X utils), what target should I start from?
07:05 < mpp> generic
07:05 < mpp> minimal-x-basic-desktop
07:05 < mpp> gentoo import ?
07:06 < Morglet> Jeez no, not at all. Download shows it bring in all kinds of crap, like xfce etc
07:06 < Morglet> Generic I mean
07:06 < mpp> i gues rxr will reject - which totally makes sence
07:06 < mpp> minimal-x
07:06 < mpp> onlay
07:07 < Morglet> I don't see a "minimal-x" target in Config.
07:07 < mpp> hold on a sec
07:08 < mpp> generic -> package template
07:08 < mpp> minimalistic and x.org
07:08 < mpp> that should do
07:10 < Morglet> Neat, I set that, checking Download
07:12 < mpp> :-)
07:12 < mpp> make sure to have ccache activated for speedup
07:13 < Morglet> Eeek, no, that's as evil as hell! It brings in Gnome, KDE, and a ton of random X desktop applications.
07:14 < mpp> did you have the right template
07:14 < mpp> ?
07:14 < Morglet> Someone's idea of "minimalist X" is really bloated
07:14 < mpp> i don't think so
07:14 < Morglet> Generic + minimal-xorg
07:14 < mpp> there are some libs for dependencies
07:15 < mpp> in minimal x the surely is no kde or gnome
07:15 < mpp> promised !
07:15 < mpp> you can grab an iso from dl2.t2-project.org to check on
07:16 < mpp> http://dl2.t2-project.org/stable/7.0-rc2/minimal-x86_64/t2-7.0-rc2-minimal-x86_64.iso
07:16 < Morglet> scripts/Download -list-missing | grep kde | wc -l
07:16 < Morglet> 34
07:17 < mpp> strange
07:17 < Morglet> That's the iso release I actually built this t2 from, yeah.
07:17 < mpp> so does it have kde ?
07:18 < Morglet> scripts/Download -list-missing | grep kde | grep base
07:18 < Morglet> download/mirror/k/kdebase-4.1.1.tar.bz2
07:18 < Morglet> download/mirror/k/kdebase-runtime-4.1.1.tar.bz2
07:18 < Morglet> download/mirror/k/kdebase-workspace-4.1.1.tar.bz2
07:18 < mpp> ah i see
07:18 < mpp> well have it the other way around
07:18 < mpp> take the minimal as base and add packages as you wish
07:21 < Morglet> I think there may be a bug. I did that (just Generic + minimal, no xorg), and kdebase is still in Download. That can't be right, surely.
07:22 < Morglet> I'm going to try to find where Generic is defined.
07:24 < Morglet> Maybe it's still cached from the previous minimal-xorg selection?
07:24 < mpp> could be
07:24 < mpp> try:
07:25 < mpp> scripts/Create-ErrList -cfg whatever -newremove
07:25 < Morglet> Is "whatever" something I have to supply?
07:26 < Morglet> Like the minimal-xorg, or the generic?
07:26 < Morglet> Or is the argument a filepath?
07:26 < mpp> what scripts/Config did you run ?
07:26 < mpp> it should be like:
07:27 < mpp> scripts/Confg -cfg mycg - otherwise its "default" config in wich case you can skip the -cfg part
07:27 < Morglet> K, skipping
07:29 < Morglet> Looks like it's bugged, because it thinks there's a cross-build occurring:
07:29 < Morglet> scripts/Create-ErrList -newremove
07:29 < Morglet> grep: build/default-8.0-trunk-generic-x86-i386-cross/var/adm/packages/: No such file or directory
07:30 < Morglet> ls -l build
07:30 < Morglet> total 4K
07:30 < Morglet> drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 2008-09-19 04:15 default-8.0-trunk-generic-x86-64
07:30 < Morglet> Ie. no "cross" :-)
07:30 < mpp> could you please remove the config/default
07:31 < mpp> and the build/default*
07:31 < mpp> and have a new config ?
07:31 < Morglet> Sure
07:31 < mpp> okay
07:31 < mpp> you haven't start a big build procedure yet ?
07:35 < Morglet> Nope, not yet, just individual packages and their deps. And just as well I haven't, else I'd have built Gnome and KDE too, lol
07:35 < mpp> right
07:35 < Morglet> OK, I've removed those two dirs, redoing Config
07:35 < mpp> okay you should be having your first build by the end of the day :-)
07:35 < mpp> what cpu are you building on ?
07:36 < Morglet> Core2 Duo
07:36 < mpp> cool
07:36 < mpp> should be breeze
07:37 < mpp> i also have a core2 duo machine
07:37 < mpp> it builds really fast
07:37 < Morglet> I see that the arch has become x86-64. The original install set it to x86
07:38 < mpp> ah yes
07:38 < mpp> you should choose precisely the target architecture / cpu
07:39 < Morglet> I think I'll change it back to x86, else flash don't work in firefox.
07:39 < mpp> hm...
07:40 < mpp> i did the performance comparison between x86 and x86-64
07:40 < mpp> ill stay with x86-64
07:40 < mpp> definetly
07:40 < Morglet> Not how I'd like the world to be, but there really is no option unless one wants to detach from the world by never watching Youtube.
07:43 < Morglet> Someone needs to drop a bomb on Adobe, damn annoying company, not releasing a 64-bit plugin simply because they don't want to.
07:43 < mpp> ill check on that later
07:44 < mpp> http://www.jamesward.com/wordpress/2006/12/06/flash-9-on-64bit-linux-in-2-commands/
07:44 < Morglet> Looking
07:44 < mpp> i remember it working on 64bit
07:46 < Morglet> That's from 2006, and I recall it no longer working. But going to try right now on my Athlon64.
07:47 < Morglet> 1st good sign: netscape-flash is no longer masked on amd64 :-)))))))))) So his first step not needed.
07:51 < mpp> mpp recharged caffeine-batterys
07:51 < mpp> :-)))
07:51 < Morglet> Bah, you're cheating. Gonna recharhe mine now too :-)
07:51 < mpp> you do that !
07:59 < Morglet> Nope, sadly Youtube still doesn't see a viable Flash player after that installation.
08:00 < Morglet> Pity. I like my Athlon64 box, even though it's a bit old (just 3200+). Would be nice if that worked on it.
08:02 < Morglet> Maybe I need a browser upgrade, going to try.
08:06 < Morglet> Bah, the binary ff 3.0.1 is a 32-bit ff, no 64-bit available. I really don't want to compile it just now, that'll take hours.
08:07 < Morglet> But I guess I can avoid the issue altogether by using the binary browser. Don't like that though.
08:10 < mpp> you could build the browser for a 32bit target
08:10 < mpp> and have the rest 64bit
08:10 < mpp> 32bit binary do run on 64bit machines
08:11 < mpp> so it's quite easy
08:12 < Morglet> Only easy if their use of external libraries is limited to those libs that have 32-bit "emul" versions.
08:15 < mpp> correct !
08:16 < mpp> mpp is cross compiling a target from scratch
08:16 < mpp> there was an error yesterday with embutils
08:16 < Morglet> Well the 32-bit binary ff3 worked on the Athlon64 Gentoo, but really must replace it by the compiled version when I have time. And then Flash will prolly break again. Woes ...
08:17 < mpp> so i need to reproduce this one and report to rxr
08:17 < mpp> that sucks
08:17 < mpp> im mean the ff3 stuff
08:19 < Morglet> Well you may be able to do better than Gentoo there since you can define 32-bit targets more easily. I'll try sticking to x86_64 on this Core2, and we'll see how it goes.
08:19 < Morglet> If Flash breaks, I'll compromise my principles and run the 32-bit binary FF here too ;-)))))
08:20 < mpp> so good luck !
08:20 < Morglet> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80wIpeKGWdg
08:20 < Morglet> :-)
08:21 < Morglet> Hehe. Well things are looking very good here so far
08:21 < Morglet> Komuso is an amazing live player in SL
08:22 < mpp> ahmm.. sorry not my style
08:22 < Morglet> Talking of SL and 64-bit, I'll be wanting to run their 32-bit client on this too, so will be battling those emul libs, grrrrrr
08:22 < mpp> but you enjoy it !
08:23 < Morglet> You don't like blues? Heathen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;-)
08:24 < mpp> .... what can i say
08:24 < Morglet> Just apologize :P
08:24 < Morglet> (kidding, hehe)
08:24 < mpp> right.
08:24 < mpp> mpp is dob '74
08:25 < Morglet> dob?
08:25 < mpp> day of birth
08:25 < Morglet> Oh, gotcha
08:25 < mpp> so im more into classical / electronic stuff
08:25 < mpp> it has always been my thing
08:25 < mpp> but anyways
08:25 < Morglet> I play MIDI keyboards here. Using the word "play" loosely.
08:26 < mpp> do what you like - we all shoud
08:26 < mpp> right ...
08:26 < mpp> kinda freestyle ?
08:26 < mpp> improvised ..
08:26 < Morglet> No, just mean that I can't play, haha ;-)
08:27 < mpp> oh well you can spell the word play and midi - thats a start !
08:29 < Morglet> I have broad tastes anyway, and there's plenty electronica in there too, at least in rock genre. Eg:
08:29 < Morglet> http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/953
08:30 < mpp> whats rock ... you will now better than i do
08:30 < Morglet> Or if you prefer German ...
08:30 < Morglet> http://www.jamendo.com/de/album/953
08:30 < mpp> gotta be kidding me ...
08:31 < Morglet> Just the website text, not the music, lol
08:31 < mpp> yes ... so how's the build doin mate ?
08:31 < Morglet> I'm wiedergabing it ...
08:32 < mpp> you speak german...
08:32 < mpp> :-)
08:32 < Morglet> Nah. Did one semester's course, learned nothing
08:33 < mpp> you gave it try - that's what counts
08:34 < Morglet> My french is better, and my spanish is good, so not monolingual anyway.
08:34 < mpp> ola senior
08:34 < mpp> com es ta ?
08:35 < Morglet> Bien gracias, y tu?
08:35 < mpp> mui bien
08:35 < Morglet> muy
08:35 < mpp> or somethin like that
08:36 < mpp> speaing of spanish- i really like latin house stlye
08:36 < mpp> like on www.di.fm - house
08:37 < Morglet> Grrr ..... after the new Config with generic+minimal (no xorg), KDE is still in there.
08:37 < mpp> what have done Morglet ...
08:39 < Morglet> Maybe I'm missing some step. All I do is go into the right T2 dir (I'm working from t2-trunk now, though the CD install was t2-7.0_rc2), run Config, and then check Download -list-missing | grep kdebase.
08:39 < mpp> maybe you'd better ask rxr about that one
08:39 < Morglet> Is that wrong?
08:39 < mpp> Download -list-missing ?
08:39 < mpp> you don't need that
08:39 < Morglet> Teyp
08:39 < Morglet> Yep
08:40 < mpp> just scripts/Build-Target
08:40 < Morglet> Uhhhhh
08:40 < mpp> it pulls all the packages automaticly
08:40 < Morglet> Well see, the manual is bad. It says to Download after config
08:41 < mpp> yes -yes - get the positive side of tt2
08:41 < koan> I first did that too, but somewhere in the manual is mentioned that you don't need the download step since version 6.0
08:41 < mpp> the manual needs rework as dozens of other thins
08:41 < Morglet> Checking Build-Target options for the equivalent to -missing
08:41 < mpp> you don't need any options
08:41 < mpp> jsut Build/Target -cfg whatever (maybe default)
08:42 < mpp> afk
08:42 < Morglet> I *always* need to know what it's about to do, if it's going to be long.
08:42 < Morglet> Otherwise I can't make an informed decision whether to do it.
08:45 < Morglet> When I did Download -list-missing, I saved myself hours and gigabytes by not downloading KDE and Gnome. Information is priceless.
08:47 < Morglet> If Build-Target is going to build KDE and Gnome and their apps now, despite using "minimal" and not "minimal-xorg", then I'm screwed. And I have no way of knowing in advance because Build-Target has no -dry-run option or similar.
08:49 < Morglet> Erk, Build-Target it's bringing in a new kernel. I wanted to do that later.
08:53 < mpp> hm..
08:53 < mpp> something is wrong with your config
08:54 < mpp> the kde gnome stuff could be more or less some libs
08:54 < mpp> at least it should be
08:54 < Morglet> Is the config in a file somewhere, so that I don't have to use that ncurses tool?
08:54 < mpp> can you post your config on pastebin.com
08:54 < mpp> of course
08:54 < mpp> its in config/mycfg/config
08:55 < Morglet> Super, looking at it
08:56 < mpp> yeah reading the handbook helps a lot
08:56 < Morglet> That's why I was using Download, because I was reading the manual ;-)
08:57 < mpp> could you paste your config so i can have a look @ it ?
08:58 < mpp> if you are ok with this
08:59 < Morglet> Looking at config, don't think it's sensitive
09:04 < Morglet> Yep, seems innocuous. Which is the preferred pastebin here?
09:05 < mpp> it's what i suggested
09:05 < mpp> you can paste post it as you like
09:07 < rxr> re
09:08 < Morglet> http://pastebin.com/d613fabaa
09:08 < mpp> good morning rxr
09:08 < Morglet> Hi rxr
09:08 < mpp> looks normal
09:09 < mpp> wonder why it pulls off kde and gnome
09:09 < Morglet> rxr, we were trying to figure out why Download -list-missing lists kdebase, despite generic+minimal not containing xorg. Any ideas?
09:12 < rxr> I think list-missing lists everything missing
09:12 < Morglet> It seems I have to sit here and monitor Build-Target, no matter how long it takes, in case it tries to build kdebase, since there is no -dry-run option.
09:13 < rxr> why would you want to set there ?
09:13 < mpp> yes
09:13 < rxr> sit
09:13 < Morglet> Because I don't want KDE
09:13 < mpp> Download -required should be enough
09:13 < rxr> yes, -required fetches all that is selected
09:14 < Morglet> I'm using the default atm, not -required. Should I abort it then, since it'll bring in KDE?
09:14 < mpp> yes you should
09:14 < Morglet> kk
09:15 < mpp> @rxr do you have anyone near you with access to a rootserver / big pipe ?
09:15 < mpp> maybe you could get the iso images temporary on a high bw connection
09:15 < rxr> nope, havent
09:16 < mpp> my rsync is choking on your bw
09:16 < mpp> okay
09:16 < rxr> well - just let it running
09:16 < mpp> allright
09:17 < mpp> so yesterday i took a closer look on the deps-stuff
09:17 < mpp> i have made preliminary analysis of the deps created and the scripts/ wich produce / update them
09:18 < mpp> as pointed out on irc yesterday , the number of mutual deps is missleading
09:18 < mpp> this is probably due to the pkgsel stuff
09:19 < mpp> normally 00-dirtree as root point of the dep graph should suffice.
09:20 < mpp> the dep files are populated way to much during Emerge
09:20 < CIA-8> rene * r30503 /trunk/package/scientific/mpfr/mpfr.desc: * updated mpfr (2.3.1 -> 2.3.2)
09:24 < CIA-8> rene * r30504 /trunk/package/graphic/libraw/libraw.desc: * updated libraw (0.5.4 -> 0.6.0)
09:24 < CIA-8> rene * r30505 /trunk/package/filesystem/libisofs/libisofs.desc: * updated libisofs (0.6.6 -> 0.6.8)
09:25 < CIA-8> rene * r30506 /trunk/package/security/libgcrypt/libgcrypt.desc: * updated libgcrypt (1.4.2 -> 1.4.3)
09:26 < CIA-8> rene * r30507 /trunk/package/xorg/xf86-input-evdev/xf86-input-evdev.desc: * updated xf86-input-evdev (2.0.4 -> 2.0.5)
09:39 < mtr> re
09:41 < mpp> hey mtr
09:41 < Morglet> Found a bug. Download is sensitive to the order of -required and -list-missing arguments. Bad flag handling.
09:44 < mpp> possibly
09:44 < mpp> if you're into bash take a look
09:44 < mpp> -required does the job pretty well
09:44 < Morglet> Also, the -required fails. "scripts/Download -list-missing -required" still shows kdebase, despite no xorg being requested.
09:45 < mpp> hmm...
09:45 < mpp> i'll check on anoter machine
09:46 < rxr> -I think -list-missing always shows the files missing from all poassible files t2 could download
09:46 < Morglet> Ouch, hehe
09:46 < Morglet> If so, another bug. I guess rxr would know?
09:46 < rxr> the -list-missing is buggy or you found another bug ?
09:48 < Morglet> Don't know if it's a new one: "scripts/Download -list-missing -required" shows kdebase in its download list, despite the config being "generic+minimal" (no xorg)
09:48 < rxr> Morglet: -list-missing is hard-wired to show all files T2 could download that are missing
09:48 < rxr> so if you have 0 packages selected, -list-missiing still shows every possible download
09:49 < Morglet> rxr: righto. So how do I tell what's in the set that WILL be downloaded?
09:49 < rxr> (don't care and let t2 do it's build work?)
09:49 < rxr> ok - well - if this is interesting for people we could indeed just improve Download to take the specified selection into acount for -list-missing
09:50 < mpp> i agree with rxr
09:50 < mpp> seems usefull to take that into account
09:50 < Morglet> rxr: can't "not care", if one wants to create a minimalist system. There might not even be disk space for KDE after all.
09:51 < rxr> t2 will not download it - it is just -list-missing not doing what you think it does
09:51 < rxr> you can take a look at the package selection in the expert section - custom package selection and then there is some "show current package selection"
09:51 < rxr> or via: grep '^X' config/default/packages
09:51 < Morglet> Thanks, looking.
09:52 < rxr> but: I can also schedule improving the Download scripts ASAP
09:52 < rxr> btw. patches always welcome
09:53 < Morglet> On a source-based system where it can take a long time to build things, and where it can take 20 times the space to build something vs the size of the end result, it's very important to know what WILL be done in advance. :-)
09:55 < Morglet> Patches from someone who is just beginning to understand T2 should NOT be welcome, I assure you. ;-) Although I'm happy to contribute once I'm beyond the day-2 noob stage ;-)
09:55 < rxr> :-)
09:55 < rxr> the Download script is not too complex
09:56 < Morglet> Well I can certainly sort out the noddy bug about it being sensitive to the order of its arguments. Lemme look.
09:56 < Morglet> Since that requires no knowledge of T2 ;-)
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11:06 < mpp> hey Morglet
11:06 < mpp> how is building ?
11:06 < Morglet> Hola
11:06 < mpp> ola senior
11:07 < Morglet> I'm not building, I'm hacking the Download script. I guess I should have started the build, but have a one-track mind.
11:07 < mpp> capiche
11:07 < mpp> i mean comprende
11:08 < Morglet> 'o' on th end of that :-)
11:08 < mpp> yea mi spanglish is kinda messy - i know
11:08 < Morglet> It's probably correct in French though, if "je" can be dropped :-)
11:09 < koan> je comprends
11:09 < Morglet> Ah, no 'e', righto :-)
11:10 < mpp> koan mon ami
11:10 < mpp> sa va ?
11:10 < koan> ça va oui
11:11 < mpp> okay mpp switches to plain english
11:11 < koan> :-)
11:11 < Morglet> Hey koan, we're you on OpenMoko?
11:11 < Morglet> weren't*
11:11 < koan> no, I find it a very interesting project, but I don't have anything to do with it :-)
11:12 < Morglet> KK, someone with a similar name
11:12 < koan> ah Koen Kooi maybe?
11:12 < Morglet> 2nd name doesn't ring a bell no
11:13 < koan> he is a OpenMoko guy, I once heard a talk of him
11:13 < Morglet> Oh, koen! Yes!
11:13 < Morglet> Haha, no koan :-)
11:13 < Morglet> One letter can make a lot of difference, hehe
11:13 < koan> :-)
11:13 < mpp> hey anybody now's how to view chm files on linux
11:14 < Morglet> Chemical ML?
11:14 < mpp> koan is zen - zen is koan
11:14 < mpp> eeek
11:14 < mpp> chemical ...
11:14 < mpp> ill try
11:15 < Morglet> Chime was a format like chem ML, I used to play with that --- purely to display caffeine molecules on the screen to frighten bosses away :P
11:15 < mpp> hm... chm2pdf that seems just what i need
11:17 < Morglet> Oh, Microsoft help files. Never had anything to do with them, since the only help that works there is a grenade.
11:17 < mpp> yea tell me about it
11:18 < mpp> as the first window opens - storm blows into the hole system - afterstorm - clear blue screen :-)))
11:18 < tfl0pz> chmview?
11:19 < mpp> yea found it finally - chmsee or kchmview or .....
11:19 < Morglet> Buh, I've been up 6+ hours and not had anything to eat yet, t2 frenzy is getting to me. Kitchen, biab
11:19 < mpp> finally apt-cache does do something meaningful
11:20 < mpp> cheerz
11:35 < Morglet> Has that flash-only mini-laptop that Dell announced to compete with the Eeeeeee been released yet?
11:40 < Morglet> Was just thinking that T2's target system would probably make it a good candidate to build systems for those wee machines.
11:42 * rxr is wating for an updated HP MiniNote ...
11:42 < rxr> with bigger screan and fater CPU than the aging VIA-C7 they ship in the current model (that get's too hot anyway)
11:45 < Morglet> Haven't seen the spec on that. Half my local friends have Eeeeee PCs though
11:46 < Morglet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hp_mini-note
11:46 < Morglet> Cute
11:48 < Morglet> Eeek, extremely expensive, 550 quid here
11:55 < Morglet> The laptop vendors are taking us for a ride I think -- they've turned that new very low-cost, diskless PC sector that Asus began into just another mid-range niche.
11:55 < Morglet> Create new buzz, then turn the prices up :-(
11:56 < Morglet> And they're probably all made by the same Chinese company for $100 anyway.
12:10 < Morglet> Taiwan makes 55% of the notebooks for the "quality brand" PC "manufacturers" in the west. Odds are the Mini-Note is made by Quanta or one of the others.
12:14 < rxr> I find the eeepc a little too fragile and cheapish ...
12:15 < rxr> the mini note is to some degree more solid and higher quality plastics and the like
12:15 < rxr> just needs a 10" screen and a modern CPU ...
12:15 < Morglet> Aye, I like HP sturdiness. Their calculators were legend.
12:16 < Morglet> My current top box is an HP, 8 cores in just 1U. DL140 G3
12:17 < Morglet> I'm not too happy with the Gentoo build I put on it. Hopefully I can work out a good target for it on T2.
12:17 < Morglet> It's intended as a virt'd server.
12:21 < Morglet> Blast, I have so many machines in the work queue: the two iSCSI boxes for storage backends, the fileserver per se, two firewalls to replace my current inflexible mess, and the new workstation box that currently has a dreadful Ubuntu on it.
12:21 < Morglet> Distressing workload.
12:23 < Morglet> Plus the virt'd DL140 which provides the front-end services.
12:23 < Morglet>
12:41 < rxr> sounds like much fun :-)
12:41 < Morglet> No, it sounds like much work
12:50 < Morglet> And we don't seem to have the modules and tools for my job #1 in the T2 repository yet, so got some importing to do before I can even start:
12:50 < Morglet> * sys-block/iscsi-initiator-core-tools
12:50 < Morglet> * sys-block/iscsitarget
12:50 < Morglet> * sys-block/open-iscsi
12:59 < rxr> oh - ok
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12:59 [Users #t2]
12:59 [@ChanServ] [ Dallur ] [ felanha ] [ LMJ ] [ mqueiros] [ rxr ]
12:59 [ axionix ] [ dsoul ] [ hikenboot] [ Morglet] [ mtr ] [ tfl0pz]
12:59 [ CIA-8 ] [ Enqlave] [ hwinkel ] [ mpp ] [ Ragnarin] [ TobiX ]
12:59 -!- Irssi: #t2: Total of 18 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 17 normal]
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14:13 [Users #t2]
14:13 [@ChanServ] [ dsoul ] [ hwinkel] [ mpp ] [ rxr ]
14:13 [ axionix ] [ Enqlave ] [ koan ] [ mqueiros] [ tfl0pz]
14:13 [ CIA-8 ] [ felanha ] [ LMJ ] [ mtr ] [ TobiX ]
14:13 [ Dallur ] [ hikenboot] [ Morglet] [ Ragnarin]
14:13 -!- Irssi: #t2: Total of 19 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 18 normal]
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15:02 < rxr> http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2007/09/googles-server-names.html
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19:42 < rxr> http://linux-iscsi.sourceforge.net/
20:15 < mpp> hey rxr
20:15 < mpp> still online ?
21:25 < CIA-8> rene * r30508 /trunk/target/archivista/rootfs/home/archivista/usb-backup.in:
21:25 < CIA-8> * improved multiple shortcoming of finding a removable USB device
21:25 < CIA-8> during archivista USB backup
21:57 < koan> what is the archivista target?
21:59 < mpp> for scanning i think
21:59 < mpp> its on exactcode.de
22:09 < rxr> the archivista target is a product of Archivista, Switzerland: http://www.archivista.ch
22:09 < rxr> (not an ExactCODE one)
22:12 < mpp> ah sorry my fault
22:12 < mpp> hey rxr short tip for me
22:13 < mpp> scripts/Emerge ... -repository xorg
22:13 < mpp> should pull the whole xorg repo ?
22:13 < mpp> ah - hold on a sec
22:13 < mpp> the /etc/SDE-CONFIG/ needs to updated
22:13 < mpp> right..
22:13 < mpp> forgot
22:14 < mpp> Emerge-Pkg fooled me into automagic :-)
22:14 < mpp> case solved
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23:09 < mpp> Hey Morglet
23:09 < mpp> are you with us ?
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--- Log closed Sat Sep 20 00:00:54 2008