--- Log opened Tue Feb 27 00:00:22 2007
00:18 < Shingoshi> R4gnar0k: Are you back yet?
00:20 < R4gnar0k> a bit
00:22 < Shingoshi> ok.
00:22 < Shingoshi> when you have the time.
00:23 < Shingoshi> Larhzu went to bed. He's in Finland.
00:25 < Shingoshi> Now I remember what I was going to ask you!
00:25 < R4gnar0k> lol
00:28 < Shingoshi> When a computer starts up, it checks for bootable partitions. Is it possible for a bootloader to cause a system to look at a cd/vd as though it has multiple bootable partitions? So that in the case of one dvd with multiple archs, the computer would look for the appropriate bootable partition on the cd/vd?
00:30 < R4gnar0k> well most architectures either look for the boot sector/master book record OR a certain filesystem in the first extent of the dvd that has a boot extension (like ISO) ...
00:30 < R4gnar0k> only macs look for a second hfs partition first afaik
00:31 < Shingoshi> Is a bootable ISO specific to only one arch.
00:31 < R4gnar0k> I think so
00:31 < R4gnar0k> what you can easily do is a arch specific boot cd or floppy or usb stick
00:32 < Shingoshi> I was wondering if the bootable ISO was a single format used by all systems?
00:32 < R4gnar0k> no
00:32 < R4gnar0k> at least not as far as I know
00:32 < Shingoshi> So a 386 ISO needs a 386 kernel.
00:32 < R4gnar0k> of course
00:33 < Shingoshi> ok. That goes back to my initial boot specific ISO and a second for the sources.
00:34 < Shingoshi> How ever, the bootable information could be stored on one dvd. The user would simply make a bootable dvd from it based on their running system.
00:35 < R4gnar0k> hm? o_o
00:35 < Shingoshi> Actually, a bootable cd.
00:35 < R4gnar0k> ok yes
00:35 < Shingoshi> In fact, it could be automated.
00:36 < Shingoshi> You insert the dvd in your system while it is running. The software binaries needed to make the bootable cd would then be able to create it automatically.
00:37 < Shingoshi> Of course, you would need to copy those files to your system, if you have only one cd dvd attached/
00:37 < R4gnar0k> sounds like a lot of work
00:38 < R4gnar0k> but feel free to implement it :)
00:38 < Shingoshi> I don't think so. All of the software we need would be on one dvd.
00:38 < R4gnar0k> well then, do it:)
00:38 < Shingoshi> It would include the files to create a bootable cd for each arch in t2.
00:39 < Shingoshi> Those files would be copied to the drive in the running system.
00:39 < Shingoshi> It would function just like any other installer. Except that it would write files to a cd instead.
00:40 < R4gnar0k> yes in principle it's simple.
00:40 < Shingoshi> That is very simple and straightforward.
00:40 < Shingoshi> It's kind of like when you get a game or network installation cd.
00:41 < R4gnar0k> but add actually packaging it (like a cd burn tool for 10 different archs and the boot images, which of course have to be tested) ...
00:41 < Shingoshi> It has the programs for more then one arch.
00:41 < Shingoshi> You simply chose which arch you need to create the bootable cd for and do it.
00:41 < R4gnar0k> and you're suddenly looking at a month of man-hours or more
00:42 < Shingoshi> I don't think so. Because if you already have those installers in place separately, you simply put them all on one cd.
00:43 < R4gnar0k> yes. IF you already have them
00:43 < R4gnar0k> do you?
00:43 < Shingoshi> It's basically like replicaiting your site to the dvd.
00:43 < Shingoshi> Do you have installers for all of the archs that you currently support?
00:44 < R4gnar0k> no we do not have any click-and-that's-all installers.
00:44 < Shingoshi> What would it take to do so?
00:44 < R4gnar0k> you would have to package the necessary files (of course cross building them first)
00:45 < Shingoshi> You basically only need to create bootable cds.
00:45 < R4gnar0k> yes
00:45 < Shingoshi> All of the compilation would be done by the bootable cd.
00:45 < Shingoshi> All of the compilers would be put on the bootable cd for each arch.
00:45 < R4gnar0k> which are usually pretty big, since you'll have to install a kernel, glibc, some tools, if you actually wanna compile you also need gcc ...
00:46 < Shingoshi> Yes. But it's not more than 700Mbs.
00:46 < R4gnar0k> so you're looking for 300meg+ for each arch ... each takes about half a day to build (with my compile host)
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00:47 < Shingoshi> You don't have existing binaries now?
00:47 < R4gnar0k> only for the arches I need
00:47 < R4gnar0k> which is x86 and x86_64
00:48 < Shingoshi> But what about the entire t2 team?
00:48 < Shingoshi> Every arch has to have an existing bootable cd, right?
00:48 < Shingoshi> I mean the teams.
00:48 < R4gnar0k> they probably have all of them if you pool them together, more or less .... but they might not have install cds built, or might use options that only apply to their systems
00:49 < Shingoshi> That's ok. It doesn't matter.
00:49 < R4gnar0k> it does when the stuff only works for them
00:49 < Shingoshi> All that is required is for all of them to put all of their work on a single dvd.
00:50 < R4gnar0k> like for example I disable lots of modules in the kernel because I know I don't have that hardware
00:51 < Shingoshi> It would be as if all of the separate teams were to compile their targets in /t2-trunk/architecture, and put them all on one dvd.
00:51 < R4gnar0k> if you have several dozens of DVDs lol
00:51 < Shingoshi> So t2-trunk/architecture would now be one entire dvd.
00:52 < Shingoshi> One dvd holds 4.7Gbs. How many archs could fit in that space?
00:52 < Shingoshi> Just the compilation binaries>
00:52 < R4gnar0k> one with a full build IF you store packages
00:53 < Shingoshi> No. Packages would be one the second dvd.
00:53 < R4gnar0k> then like I said, 300 meg or so
00:54 < Shingoshi> The only packages one the first dvd would be those required to start the system and complile the Emerge-Pkg's.
00:54 < R4gnar0k> then you basically have gentoo
00:54 < R4gnar0k> I fail to see the point ... o_o
00:55 < R4gnar0k> you _do not_ want to Emerge every package on every client
00:55 < R4gnar0k> you want to built them once for each arch you want to support
00:55 < Shingoshi> Yes. You have a much more centralized system. No, you only Emerge the pkgs you want.
00:56 < Shingoshi> It could simply be an option for locations with more than one arch.
00:57 < R4gnar0k> even the packages you want isn't going to be helpful much. a basic desktop compile takes 2 days on a fast system.
00:57 < Shingoshi> I think it would be cheaper for everyone in the long run. Less downloads for one thing!
00:57 < R4gnar0k> why less downloads? o_o
00:58 < Shingoshi> So have the most likely packages one would need to start using their system.
00:58 < R4gnar0k> what are the most likely packages? those differ widely from user to user
00:58 < Shingoshi> Look at Gentoo or Slackware or any other distro which supports more than one arch.
00:59 < R4gnar0k> one user wants kde ... the other gnome ... the other doesn't want X at all
00:59 < Shingoshi> Look at how many separate cd/vd's they have to make.
00:59 < R4gnar0k> yes. there's a reason why they need that tho
01:00 < Shingoshi> For small systems, that may not be advantageous. But for more powerful systems, it might be.
01:01 < Shingoshi> Opterons and Alphas. Or even PS3's and G5's.
01:01 < Shingoshi> they could handle the work load fine.
01:02 < Shingoshi> I have only one dual-core 1.8 gig proc. And I am impressed at how much faster it compiles.
01:02 < R4gnar0k> you're still looking at days of compile time for each client. that's a huge waste of resources tho
01:02 < Shingoshi> Kind of scary in fact.
01:02 < Shingoshi> Let's go back to my initial target.
01:03 < R4gnar0k> brb again
01:03 < Shingoshi> I have one server for the network.
01:03 < Shingoshi> it serves applications to all nodes/clients on the network.
01:03 < Shingoshi> And the entire network is clustered.
01:04 < Shingoshi> As well as having distcc installed and running across every machine.
01:04 < Shingoshi> The compilations won't take so long then.
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02:28 < Shingoshi> R4gnar0k: I just compressed the t2-trunk from bz2 to .tlz. The file was originally 4635701 to 3540893 bytes. That's .76x better than bz2. Ir 24% nore storage space gained here.
02:28 < R4gnar0k> duh
02:28 < R4gnar0k> the trunk is the least of your problems
02:29 < Shingoshi> I was referring to your concern about the 4.9Gbs not fitting on one dvd.
02:30 < Shingoshi> That translates to approx 3.7Gbs
02:30 < R4gnar0k> which might work well on text (which the t2 trunk is) but I doubt you'll get the same rates on binaries
02:33 < Shingoshi> You really think that if you put all of the bootable files for each arch on one dvd, that it wouldn't actually fit? I mean only the bootable files, not secondary packages.
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02:34 < R4gnar0k> no, I'm still stating that it's a lot of work to get that all together and _tested_
02:34 < Shingoshi> Now maybe you might disagree with me. But I consider mc a necessary file which should be included on every boot cd. As well as the basic networking packages.
02:35 < Shingoshi> Do the individual archs have installers? Or at least which ones do?
02:35 < R4gnar0k> mc? you're joking, right?
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02:36 < Shingoshi> No. It's the first program I look for after an initial installation has completed. Because I can do virtually everything with it>
02:37 < Shingoshi> When I want to start browsing my filesystem, it's what I use for that purpose.
02:37 < R4gnar0k> when you say installers, do I get you right in that you're thinking about install shield windows stuff? :)
02:38 < Shingoshi> If I need to edit conf files, that's what I use.
02:39 < Shingoshi> When I say installers, I mean those like Redhat's or any other which puts your software on your hard drives.
02:40 < R4gnar0k> ok lol
02:41 < Shingoshi> There are a few other things I would like to see added to mc. One of them is parted. Another would be links. mc already has ftp bundled with it. I would include things which you can use to complete the installation process.
02:42 < R4gnar0k> well we don't have anything like that for any of the archs. we are not redhat, we don't aim at the totally new to linux user. we aim at experienced system admins who want their own thing without going through the hassle of building everything anew for each machine.
02:42 < Shingoshi> I come from having experience with FreeBSD. I really liked their two floppy system. I think it is now three.
02:43 < Shingoshi> But you can install the entire system from the network. All from having only two or three floppies.
02:44 < R4gnar0k> you can do that with t2 too
02:44 < Shingoshi> Maybe you don't. But that shouldn't stop someone from creating such a system.
02:44 < R4gnar0k> as I said, my usual way of installation is: boot knoppx - fdisk - make filesystems - mount - mine -i pkgs/*
02:45 < R4gnar0k> feel free to do it ... I'm just trying to make it clear that you're heading for a lot of work
03:06 < Shingoshi> I am looking into installing my system now.
03:06 < Shingoshi> I am also creating an installation script in the process.
03:16 < Shingoshi> Your binaries are created as tar.bz2, right?
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03:27 < Shingoshi> Ok. the reason why I asked, is because all of the files I have on my x86_64 cd are in tarbz2 format. There are no GEMs here.
03:27 < Shingoshi> I guess I am missing the family jewels!!! LOL LOL
03:27 < Shingoshi> GEMs. Ok, it's silly!
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03:51 < R4gnar0k> lol
03:51 < R4gnar0k> it's an option for the build. I prefer gems
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06:52 < Shingoshi> I am really pissed with my net provider, Comcast.
06:53 < Shingoshi> I have broadband, but it keeps crashing..
06:53 < Shingoshi> It was down since 20:17. More than an hour!
06:55 < Shingoshi> About the GEMs, I was looking for where I could change it to .tlz.
06:55 < Shingoshi> Where is the package format determined?
07:20 < Shingoshi> How do I tell the build, I want all of my packages made as .tlz?
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07:38 < rxr> re
07:38 < Capey> hmm, it will take hours to do scroll back and catch up...
07:38 < rxr> Shingoshi: you can change the pkg format in the Config
07:39 < Capey> and morning all
07:39 < rxr> Shingoshi: the default is tar.bz2 these days
07:41 < rxr> moin Capey
07:43 < Capey> hmm, i could have use cases for that LTSP t2 target
07:43 < Capey> btw... does anyone use transcode here?
07:44 < Capey> tryed to convert avi to dvd format with it... all i got was 60s of movie and lots of buffer overflows
07:44 < Capey> i guess something wrong with ffmpeg since thats the one giving those errors
07:45 < Capey> so compiles fine but does not run that good :(
07:46 < rxr> I ususally use mencoder
07:47 < Capey> havent used that much, better?
07:48 < rxr> when I used it it did work
07:48 < rxr> but these days I work 100% of the time, and thus seldom get in touch with video files ...
07:48 < rxr> Shingoshi: for the binary tarball selection you need to enable [*] Show expert and experimental options
07:49 < rxr> Shingoshi: and then it is the first option thereafter: (tar.bz2) Create tar.bz2 binary packages
07:53 < rxr> mtr: moin moin mtr, can we remove this vdr-old? It causes a build abort on each reference build ... :-(((
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07:58 < CIA-8> rene * r22742 /trunk/package/develop/cxxtools/cxxtools.desc: * updated cxxtools (1.4.3.2 -> 1.4.3.3)
07:58 [Users #t2]
07:58 [@ChanServ] [ emte_ ] [ LMJ ] [ rxr ] [ Stelz ]
07:58 [ Capey ] [ emte__] [ mtr ] [ Shingoshi ] [ valentin]
07:58 [ CIA-8 ] [ idealm] [ R4gnar0k] [ sparc-kly_]
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08:00 < Shingoshi> Capey: Thank you.
08:01 < Shingoshi> rxr: Sorry, that should have been for you!
08:01 < Shingoshi> There is something I see as an advantage here.
08:02 < Shingoshi> Slackware may have a larger user base. You may have a better Developer base. In terms of your tools.
08:03 < Shingoshi> I don't see Slackware changing any time soon. But there are smaller distros like Tukaani which would definitely benefit from your tools.
08:04 < CIA-8> rene * r22743 /trunk/package/database/opendbx/opendbx.desc: * updated opendbx (1.2.1 -> 1.2.2)
08:04 < Shingoshi> I have been reading about Puppyos. I am convinced I have made the right decision to use your system.
08:05 < Shingoshi> I think there are many other Slackware users besides myself who will want to use your system as their build environment.
08:06 < Shingoshi> Some of those users are in the 64bit versions of Slackware like Slamd64.
08:06 < Shingoshi> Slamd64 doesn't have a working gnat for instance.
08:07 < Shingoshi> That's what really got me looking elsewhere.
08:07 < Shingoshi> So I found you.
08:07 < Shingoshi> Boy am I glad!
08:07 < rxr> :-) nice to hear
08:08 < Shingoshi> I like slackware. But it is too conservative.
08:08 < rxr> from what I read mostly a one-man show anyway
08:08 < rxr> (the original i386 flavour)
08:08 < Shingoshi> You give me the ability to build the latest packages and still have the security I want to maintain.
08:08 < rxr> would be awesome if at some time Pat would choose T2 to build his binaries :-)
08:09 < Shingoshi> We don't need to wait for him!
08:09 < CIA-8> rene * r22744 /trunk/package/shells/fish/fish.desc: * updated fish (1.22.2 -> 1.22.3)
08:09 < Shingoshi> I am trying to convince Lasse Collin of Tukaani to use you instread.
08:09 < rxr> btw, we have an automatic tracker for updates
08:10 < rxr> parsing our package .description and checking the upstream sites
08:10 < rxr> we basically just have to cherry-pick those and thest them in the morning :-)
08:10 < Shingoshi> If he does that, we don't need to depend on Pat to change his mind.
08:11 < Shingoshi> This is one of the things I spoke to Lasse about some time ago.
08:11 < Shingoshi> I have already told him about you.
08:11 < rxr> I'm actually quite glad that other open souce distributions start taking a look at T2
08:11 < rxr> Puppy was just the beginning
08:12 < Shingoshi> But there is a chance you don't have to wait for anyone else at all.
08:12 < rxr> usually we "just" realize products on the base of T2, but other open source project re-using it is definetly a lot more fun
08:13 < Shingoshi> If you were to use the tukaani pkgtools, you could create packages for all of the slackware variants on your own.
08:13 < Shingoshi> Consider it like a preemptive strike!
08:13 < Shingoshi> If you build it, they will come!!
08:13 < Shingoshi> LOL
08:14 < Shingoshi> It would be nice to create a package of all of your tools that can be installed as a slackware package, using the .tlz format.
08:15 < Shingoshi> pkgtools-tukaani will install and make slackware pkgs as well as their own. Both .tgz and .tlz!
08:16 < Shingoshi> So, if you could adapt t2 to use pkgtools-tukaani, you will suddenly have an entirely new user base which I think would really explode.
08:17 < Shingoshi> Like a NUKE!!
08:17 < CIA-8> rene * r22745 /trunk/package/graphic/dcraw/dcraw.desc: * updated dcraw (8.54 -> 8.61)
08:19 < Shingoshi> I fully believe that the underlying aspects of slackware and it's variants are fully compatible with what you have done.
08:20 < Shingoshi> Now I think you need to be rewarded for your good efforts.
08:21 < Shingoshi> If I could build packages for Slamd64 using t2, I could post those pkgs on linuxpackages.net.
08:21 < Shingoshi> That would open doors that currently are closed.
08:22 < CIA-8> rene * r22746 /trunk/package/gnome2/pyorbit/pyorbit.desc: * updated pyorbit (2.14.1 -> 2.14.2)
08:22 < Shingoshi> I only need to use t2 for the build process. And then use pkgtools-tukaani for the packaging.
08:23 < rxr> sounds all interesting
08:23 < Shingoshi> But even that could be shortened if I simply change the package format in Config to .tlz.
08:23 < rxr> if you have at least some basic knowledge in shell scripting I'm sure you even can integrate this yourself in T2
08:24 < Shingoshi> I already have the slackware tools.
08:25 < rxr> currently I work on the next generation features for T2
08:25 < Shingoshi> It is simply a matter of building packages in slackware with t2. Result, the system I have already started on my own, called TukToo64.
08:25 < Shingoshi> The irony is that I already had the too before I found you.
08:25 < rxr> that is two new CPU architectures, features making working and defining this build target in a more comfortable and advanced way and expanding to other OS kernels
08:26 < rxr> Minix that is in the first place, later GNU/Hurd and the BSD or so
08:26 < Shingoshi> That's twilight zone. da da, da da!
08:26 < rxr> :-)
08:28 < Shingoshi> Speaking of minix. How difficult would it be to "restart" with either minix or linux-2.0.40, and create that extension system we talked about. So that patches could be treated by the kernel as extensions or installable modules?
08:28 < Shingoshi> I probably lost you again.
08:28 < rxr> I would not use an old linux kernel
08:28 < Shingoshi> minix?
08:28 < rxr> they are really way more munchy code
08:28 < Shingoshi> hurd?
08:29 < rxr> well - when you read the academic papers about minix all is good and colorful - however my first looks do not put it into such a bright light
08:29 < rxr> anyway, minix as a microkernel should be more suited for well defined APIs and thus modular extensions ...
08:30 < Shingoshi> And hurd is supposed to already have all of the links built in for clustering.
08:30 < Shingoshi> Read that on their site. hurd.
08:31 < rxr> hm - from what I heared from the Hurd involved people Hurd is more stallen then ever these days
08:31 < rxr> and an insider told me that despite the microkernel they even have a possible security leak in their setup
08:31 < rxr> the few people working on Hurd look into other project these days
08:32 < Shingoshi> hurd?
08:32 < rxr> yeah
08:32 < Shingoshi> or minix
08:32 < rxr> hurd
08:32 < Shingoshi> wow!
08:32 < Shingoshi> How fixable is it?
08:32 < rxr> I mean look at the ovious progress, they have basically no access to >2GB partitions despite working on Hurd longer than Linux exists ...
08:32 < rxr> there was some experiemntal and slow patch by some student, but I think it was not incooperated
08:33 < CIA-8> mtr * r22747 /trunk/package/attic/vdr-old/: * removed old monolithic vdr package
08:33 < rxr> hey mtr ! :-)
08:33 < mtr> moin :-)
08:33 < rxr> mtr: more and more stuff cross builds now, including openssh
08:33 < rxr> mtr: I guess time to start the CROSS tagging ?
08:33 < rxr> mtr: what do you think?
08:33 < mtr> what about NOCROSS ;-)
08:33 < Shingoshi> So why not restart with the smallest linux kernel, and rewrite it to be the modular system I envision?
08:34 < rxr> mtr: heh - lol - that was a good joke :-)
08:34 < Shingoshi> moin is hello?
08:34 < Shingoshi> in German.
08:34 < rxr> Shingoshi: moin = good morning
08:34 < rxr> Shingoshi: nope in German hello is "hallo":-)
08:35 < mtr> hello Shingoshi
08:35 < Shingoshi> ok.
08:35 < rxr> Shingoshi: however moin is a special form of "good morning" in noth germany, up at the sea
08:35 < Shingoshi> So moin is just a form of abbreviation of morning.
08:35 < Shingoshi> Ireland?
08:35 < rxr> nope, still Germany .-)
08:36 < Shingoshi> ok.
08:36 < rxr> though ireland is nice, likewise :-)
08:36 < rxr> http://rene.rebe.name/photos/?p=/Ireland/
08:36 < rxr> mtr: NOCROSS would still be massive, basically all the joe users desktop stuff ...
08:37 < rxr> mtr: I hope NOCROSS really was a joke ?
08:37 < mtr> yes, i think CROSS fits much better
08:38 < Shingoshi> How old are you, young man?
08:38 < rxr> that was 9 years ago
08:38 < rxr> Shingoshi: I hit the 30 shortly ...
08:39 < Shingoshi> Wow! How long ago did you take these?
08:40 < rxr> picture?
08:40 < Shingoshi> yeah
08:40 < Shingoshi> on bike
08:40 < rxr> I have been cycling thru ireland 3 weeks with a friend
08:40 < Shingoshi> So is your hair blond or brown?
08:41 < Shingoshi> Is that blue car a Morgan?
08:41 < rxr> brown
08:41 < rxr> but these days I they are not long anymore
08:41 < rxr> http://www.exactcode.de/about/
08:42 < rxr> ^- 2nd from the top
08:42 < Shingoshi> So you are the one in the glasses, in the New York t-shirt.
08:43 < rxr> http://rene.rebe.name/photos/?p=/Lxexpo-2006/imgp1639.jpg
08:44 < Shingoshi> Ok, young man!! LOL Yes, I can say that. I am OLD!!!!
08:47 < rxr> lol, sooner than later the next 20 or so years are gone for me as well ...
08:47 < Shingoshi> Listening to Jay Leno here. Tells story of woman who swallows her "client's" false teeth.
08:47 < Shingoshi> Punch line: No there's something that can bite you in the ass!
08:49 < Shingoshi> Punch line: Now there's something that can bite you in the ass!
08:49 < Shingoshi> Really sick.
08:50 < Shingoshi> Well well can't say she bit off more than she could chew!
08:50 < Shingoshi> Well we can't say she bit off more than she could chew!
08:57 < Shingoshi> Was all of this lost in translation?
08:59 < rxr> parts of it :-)
09:01 < rxr> nah, basically I'm just working on the other terminals ...
09:01 < rxr> I have quite some workload, especially as we want to showcast some new amazing stuff at the CeBIT
09:03 [Users #t2]
09:03 [@ChanServ] [ emte__] [ mtr ] [ Shingoshi ] [ valentin]
09:03 [ Capey ] [ idealm] [ R4gnar0k] [ sparc-kly_]
09:03 [ CIA-8 ] [ LMJ ] [ rxr ] [ Stelz ]
09:03 -!- Irssi: #t2: Total of 13 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 12 normal]
09:05 < rxr> R4gnar0k: in the scrollback you wrote that you prefer GEMs?
09:05 < rxr> R4gnar0k: you know that support for GEMs will be dropped with 8.0 or so ..? Maybe even for 7.0
09:05 < rxr> R4gnar0k: hoe comes you like this GEMs ?
09:06 < Shingoshi> I think the woman was a prostitute.
09:07 < Shingoshi> She swallowed the man's false teeth.
09:07 < Shingoshi> The joke is that they will come back to bite her in the ass!
09:08 < R4gnar0k> rxr: because tar.bz2 are a bitch to install?
09:08 < Shingoshi> That's Why I suggested using .tlz.
09:09 < rxr> R4gnar0k: mine just groks them as well
09:09 < rxr> R4gnar0k: + you can just use tar when you have no mine handy
09:09 < Shingoshi> They are smaller, and an already supported format that can be used by a larger base of users, Immediately!
09:09 < rxr> R4gnar0k: + GEM creation is highly inefficent as first the internal, later wrappere, .tar.bz2 is created anyway ...
09:09 < rxr> R4gnar0k: what is the hard part installing them ?
09:10 < R4gnar0k> can I do mine -i *.tar.bz2 ?
09:10 < Shingoshi> That's Why I suggested using .tlz.
09:10 < rxr> R4gnar0k: of course, I patched mine from the top to the buttom to allow this ...
09:10 < Shingoshi> They are smaller, and an already supported format that can be used by a larger base of users, Immediately!
09:10 < R4gnar0k> Shingoshi: you are repeating yourself. lol
09:10 < R4gnar0k> who uses lz?
09:10 < rxr> R4gnar0k: plus you can unpack them on any other Linux ...
09:11 < Shingoshi> Tukaani. They are a slackware system.
09:11 < rxr> R4gnar0k: if you rather want to keep the properitary .gem just fine
09:11 < rxr> R4gnar0k: I just thought onone really likes those
09:11 < R4gnar0k> idk really. as long as the functionality of mine stays
09:11 < Shingoshi> Their pkgtools will install both .tgz and .tlz.
09:11 < rxr> R4gnar0k: hm - ok
09:12 < Shingoshi> And they have a convertpkg tool to change things to .tlz.
09:12 < rxr> R4gnar0k: the plan was to ditch mine, but I fear you rather adapted to it :-)
09:12 < rxr> Shingoshi: yeah like cat .tar.bu2 | bunzip2 | lzma > .tlz ?
09:12 < R4gnar0k> well what do you use?
09:12 < rxr> R4gnar0k: well, basically noone (beside us) knows mine
09:13 < R4gnar0k> so other ppl install their systems ... how? ;)
09:13 < rxr> R4gnar0k: thus I figured using some more intuite naming, possible used on some other more known system might help the users
09:13 < Shingoshi> I guess. But with convertpkg, it is one command!
09:13 < rxr> R4gnar0k: when I talked with others about this topic they usually like pkg-{add,del,check,...} as Solaris and Slackware (or so) and ROCK Linxu 1.4 had ...
09:14 < rxr> also easier to explain to new users as the naming is somehwat more intuitive
09:14 < rxr> than "mine"
09:14 < rxr> mine as in "Mein Schatz!"
09:15 < R4gnar0k> lol
09:15 < R4gnar0k> gem - mine
09:15 < Shingoshi> With .tlz, you could basically take over Slackware!
09:16 < Shingoshi> I am already proof of that!
09:16 < rxr> R4gnar0k: what do you think regarding the pkg-* ?
09:16 < R4gnar0k> what I need is the functionality that I can specify pkgs/* and it will install all packages there
09:16 < rxr> in any case if you like mine we can just keep it as alternative
09:16 < Shingoshi> Just because a person uses slackware, doesn't mean they don't want faster pkg development.
09:16 < R4gnar0k> afaik neither of the pkg-add things does this?
09:17 < rxr> R4gnar0k: pkg-add */* ...
09:17 < rxr> or so
09:17 < R4gnar0k> really?
09:17 < R4gnar0k> ok then
09:18 < Shingoshi> Can we offer .tlz as an alternative also?
09:19 < rxr> Shingoshi: sure, just 3 lines of code or so ...
09:20 < Shingoshi> I think something as simple as creating a /usr/libexec inside of t2-trunk, and copying all of the subdirs into it, I can make a slackware pkg in .tlz format.
09:21 < R4gnar0k> hm?
09:21 < Shingoshi> In fact I am going to do that now.
09:22 < R4gnar0k> anyway, I'm off to bed, nini
09:22 < Shingoshi> bye kid!
09:23 < Shingoshi> Poor guy. rxr it's just you and I now.
09:23 < Shingoshi> LOL
09:23 < rxr> usr/libexec what ?
09:25 < Shingoshi> I just put all of the subdirs of t2-trunk into it, with the trunk dir. So now it's t2-trunk/usr/libexec/foo
09:25 < Shingoshi> I can now create a pkg for slackware from it.
09:25 < Shingoshi> It will install all of the trunk into /usr/libexec/t2-trunk!
09:26 < Shingoshi> So now I will create a slack-desc file for t2-trunk.
09:27 < Shingoshi> I'll let you look at it to see if you approve of the desc.
09:27 < Shingoshi> I will likely copy the desc from data on your website.
09:28 < Shingoshi> Doing that now.
09:29 < Shingoshi> Here is the text of my slack-desc for T2: T2 allows the creation of custom distributions with bleeding edge technology, up-to-date packages and integrated support for cross compilation.
09:30 < Shingoshi> rxr: What do you think?
09:31 < rxr> oehm - intersting approach :-)
09:36 < Shingoshi> http://rafb.net/p/ZYPDQe83.html
09:37 < Shingoshi> That didn't work. Let me do it again/
09:38 < rxr> you mean to install t2 inside slackware
09:38 < Shingoshi> yes. http://rafb.net/p/nb0D8z82.html
09:40 < Shingoshi> I think I might also create a .INSTALL as well, like what is used by archlinux I think.
09:41 < rxr> http://www.matrox.com/graphics/en/special/news/pr/ip_licensing.php
09:46 < Shingoshi> What is on this link you want me to see. I am looking at it now.
09:47 < rxr> it was more for all
09:47 < rxr> did not know that there is now a G200 graphic controller in some third party silicon
09:48 < Shingoshi> oh o_o
09:48 < Shingoshi> Did you see my slack-desc?
09:48 < Shingoshi> yes. http://rafb.net/p/nb0D8z82.html
09:49 < rxr> yes, there is not more needed? e.g. where to sopy stuff to or so?
09:49 < Shingoshi> no.
09:49 < Shingoshi> pkgtools takes care of that.
09:50 < Shingoshi> At least I think so.
09:50 < Shingoshi> Typically you don't need an install script.
09:51 < Shingoshi> installpkg package simply untars to / all of the files in the .tgz
09:51 < Shingoshi> Or in this case, .tlz.
09:51 < Shingoshi> You can tell what other files you would like me to add to make this work with your system if you need to.
09:53 < Shingoshi> I could create a slack-requires list as well to show what needs to be installed for the trunk to compile pkgs.
09:53 < Shingoshi> You can tell me what other files you would like me to add to make this work with your system if you need to.
09:54 < rxr> it requires bash, ncurses, tar, sed, awk + compiler and so
09:54 < Shingoshi> In fact, if you download pkgtools-tukaani, you can simply install it by untarring it into your root dir.
09:54 < rxr> Shingoshi: usually you can just download the T2 tarball and drop it into /usr/src/ or /home/$USER to work with T12
09:54 < rxr> T2
09:54 < rxr> you think it is better to have a package for it ?
09:55 < Shingoshi> Most of it should already be there.
09:55 < Shingoshi> Yes. It will entice more users to try it, if they don't have to figure things out.
09:55 < Shingoshi> And I can post it on linuxpackages.net.
09:57 < rxr> ok
09:57 < Shingoshi> I might move all of your scripts to /usr/bin/t2 or /root/t2/bin.
09:57 < rxr> then they will not work anymore
09:57 < rxr> the T2 source tree must be kept in the form it is organzed
09:57 < rxr> otherwise the modules will not play together
09:57 < Shingoshi> Or I can put them in /usr/libexec/t2-trunk/bin
09:58 < rxr> don't move files in the t2-trunk around, it will not work
09:58 < Shingoshi> As long as the system can find the command in a known /bin, the scripts will be found and used as intended.
09:59 < Shingoshi> I have already create a whole series of scripts in /root/buildpkg/bin, and they now work globally!
10:00 < Shingoshi> So the same thing would be true with yours.
10:00 < rxr> I meant the t2 scripts will not work when not run int he T2 lop-level directory
10:00 < Shingoshi> I would not have to run ../scripts/foo. I would only have to run foo as a command.
10:01 < rxr> because they will not find the modules, configuration and package descriptions beeing read in
10:01 < rxr> you need a wrapper then cd'ing into the t2-toplevel if you wnt that
10:01 < rxr> want that
10:01 < Shingoshi> ok. that can be done easily enough.
10:02 < Shingoshi> I could just test it first. As I should do!
10:03 < Shingoshi> I will put your scripts into /root/t2/bin. I will then try to run Config from anywhere else and see what happens.
10:05 < Shingoshi> Let me make sure of something to be certain. The commands are simply Config "target"?
10:06 < Shingoshi> The reason I think it is better to do this, is that average users won't have to learn where to look for the scripts to build pkgs.
10:07 < Shingoshi> I know that you intended your system for my advanced users. But I think you have the opportunity to serve a larger audience.
10:07 < rxr> the average user will only use the pre-build packages out of "the library" anyway, no?
10:07 < Shingoshi> Not necessarily. Some will want to rebuild their own.
10:08 < CIA-8> rene * r22748 /trunk/package/base/modutils/modutils.desc: * marked the old 2.4 modutils to not support the all new avr32 and bfin
10:09 < Shingoshi> I guess I should create a .LICENSE file in the top directory of the pkgs.
10:10 < Shingoshi> I think if I make the pkgs compatible with arch as well, there may be some who want to use them as well.
10:11 < Shingoshi> When I first installed slackware, I did it on a crashed Redhat system to recover it. That's how I started using slackware.
10:11 < Shingoshi> After I got my system running properly, I simply stayed with slackware.
10:12 < Shingoshi> It was kind of like an alien parasite from a scifi movie.
10:13 < Shingoshi> Slackware gestated inside of my Redhat system, and fully matured into it's own.
10:14 < Shingoshi> That's basically what I am now doing with yours. Turning slackware to t2 from the inside out.
10:14 < Shingoshi> Have to eat again.
10:17 < rxr> goot apetite
10:20 < CIA-8> rene * r22749 /trunk/architecture/ (avr32/kernel.conf.m4 bfin/kernel.conf.m4): * added default inheriting avr32 and bfin kernel configs
10:27 < Shingoshi> bb soon
10:28 < CIA-8> rene * r22750 /trunk/package/network/mod_security/mod_security.desc: * updated mod_security (2.0.4 -> 2.1.0)
10:28 < rxr> cu Shingoshi
10:29 < rxr> good appetite, btw
10:31 < Shingoshi> yes. i saw that. thank you!
10:33 < rxr> yeah - just reposted it to correct the two typos in the line :-)
10:38 < Shingoshi> Are you still there?
10:39 < Shingoshi> I am looking at creating a target called slackware.
10:39 < Shingoshi> It will build a complete slackware system for any architect.
10:41 < Shingoshi> I will then look into overlays for groups of pkgs, like net, games, utils, shells, etc.
10:42 < rxr> sound good
10:42 < rxr> yes I'll be here for the next 10h or so ..
10:42 < Shingoshi> target slackware will just be the base system to boot your computer and navigate through your system with the tools to configure it.
10:42 < rxr> well - 8h maybe ...
10:42 < rxr> the day "just" started here ...
10:42 < Shingoshi> *h?
10:42 < rxr> just 10:42
10:42 < Shingoshi> 8h?
10:42 < rxr> h => hour
10:42 < Shingoshi> oh.
10:43 < Shingoshi> So you are at work now, and I shouldn't pester you?
10:47 < Shingoshi> I merely made a link from scripts to bin inside of /usr/libexec/t2-trunk/
10:48 < rxr> I work 80h or so - when you read me here I'm most probably at work, yes
10:48 < rxr> that's also why I can not respond all the time perfectly quickly ...
10:48 < Shingoshi> I think that should take care of all issues regarding relocation.
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10:58 < sepp> moin :)
11:04 < rxr> moin moin sepp :-)
11:05 < sepp> hi rxr :)
11:06 < CIA-8> rene * r22751 /trunk/package/graphic/fbv/ (. fbv.cache fbv.desc linux-header.patch): * added fbv (0.99) - A graphic file viewer for the Linux framebuffer device
11:09 < sepp> on my X2 it is faster to build e.g. hugin (which is the only thing i tested) with only 1 g++, if there are 2 or 4 running all they do is swap forever
11:09 < sepp> :/
11:10 < sepp> without ccache ...
11:10 < sepp> quite stupid
11:18 < Shingoshi> http://rafb.net/p/ZIWgGj43.html
11:21 < Shingoshi> Check this please.
11:21 < Shingoshi> ^^^
11:22 < rxr> looks ok
11:22 < Shingoshi> rxr: Does your company have the means to make pci cards?
11:23 < rxr> depends on what kind of cards :-)
11:23 < Shingoshi> What are your limitations?
11:24 < rxr> well, a 3D accelerator is definetly out of scope right now :-)
11:25 < Shingoshi> No. How about single board computers.
11:26 < rxr> depends with what kind of CPUs and the like, but yes
11:26 < Shingoshi> I only want to make one kind of card.
11:28 < rxr> also depends on the quality
11:28 < rxr> of course more than 1 would need to be manufactored ... :-)
11:28 < Shingoshi> The processor could be the Physx chip from Aegiea.
11:29 < Shingoshi> No. I want only one type of card to begin with.
11:29 < Shingoshi> The other could be an AMD Geode.
11:31 < Shingoshi> But I am not sure about the Geode. It may be too confining.
11:32 < Shingoshi> Maybe something else that can run 64bit linux as an embedded system.
11:32 < rxr> well, those kind of boards take some month to develop and get the first prototype and definetly need to be in higher quantities :-)
11:32 < rxr> you can not just make one of those boards
11:32 < Shingoshi> There are a few other processors around to do the job.
11:32 < rxr> board #1 would cost like 50000 US$ or so ... :-)
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11:34 < Shingoshi> I want to build one plug in card for standard pc's, which would boost them into a higher level of performance without sacrificing the existing system.
11:34 < misl> hi folks
11:35 < Shingoshi> Have you seen the Cell Broadband Card from mc.com? Mercury Computers.
11:35 < Shingoshi> I want to create a modern version of the transputer card from so many years ago.
11:36 < rxr> ouh
11:36 < rxr> do you have that much venture capital ?
11:36 < Shingoshi> Maybe the Geode is not such a bad idea after all. Especially since the majority of users still are on 32bit.
11:36 < rxr> I find the new pwreficient pa semi board qutie nice
11:37 < Shingoshi> NO
11:37 < rxr> unfortunatly they want 8000 EUR for a prototype ...
11:37 < Shingoshi> pwrefficient?
11:37 < rxr> http://www.pasemi.com/
11:37 < rxr> that is their trademark
11:37 < rxr> PWRficient?
11:38 < Shingoshi> Checking.
11:38 < rxr> thinkg is when you want something for an open society you better use no commerical chip in the first place and instead plug a system together of open cores
11:38 < rxr> that also does not cost 50000 USD for the first protype then ...
11:40 < Shingoshi> Can this chip do SMP also? Seems like it should.
11:40 < Shingoshi> Let me read this.
11:40 < rxr> http://www.opencores.org/
11:40 < rxr> btw have you already added your flag here: http://www.t2-project.org/startpage
11:40 < Shingoshi> ok. checking.
11:43 < rxr> the pasemi board is multicore, yes
11:43 < Shingoshi> How expensive is it?
11:44 < Shingoshi> How difficult would it be to take a previous design which is out of production and my no longer have a company claiming rights to it?
11:44 < Shingoshi> Something like the Transputer?
11:45 < Shingoshi> It was a 486 card.
11:45 < Shingoshi> It had multiple processors on one card.
11:48 < rxr> no idea
11:49 < Shingoshi> Did you know about the Transputer?
11:50 < rxr> yes
11:50 < Shingoshi> ok
11:50 < rxr> but wasn't it a custom CPU, not a x86 card ?
11:50 < rxr> custom passive parallel silicon
11:51 < Shingoshi> Are you thinking of a recent card? The one I am referring to is over 20 years old.
11:52 < rxr> did a 486 exist 20 years ago ?=
11:53 < rxr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transputer
11:53 < Shingoshi> 87, yes, I think. Mybe it was 97.
11:53 < Shingoshi> Let me check again.
11:54 < Shingoshi> I am already there. ha!~
11:54 < Shingoshi> LOL
11:56 < rxr> when we speak about the same it was a custom silicon as I remebered and is now owned by ST
11:56 < rxr> "This was too much for INMOS, who didn't have the funding needed to continue development. By this time, the company had been sold to SGS-Thomson (now STMicroelectronics),"
11:58 < Shingoshi> But there was a card that was made years ago that had multiple processors on one ISA card. Maybe I have the wrong processor name.
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11:59 < Shingoshi> I am so annoyed with having to use such a small screen. 15" at 1280x1024
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12:29 < rxr> ok - gotta go have lunch - cu later
12:37 < Shingoshi> going to bed.
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15:25 < CIA-8> rene * r22752 /trunk/package/base/strace/strace.desc: * added avr32 patch to strace
15:26 < CIA-8> rene * r22753 /trunk/package/base/uclibc/patches/ (3 files): * removed non-applying, obsolete uclibc patches
15:27 < CIA-8> rene * r22754 /trunk/package/base/automake/avr32.patch: * patched avr32-* into the automake provided config.sub
15:28 < CIA-8> rene * r22755 /trunk/package/audio/alsa-tools/alsa-tools.conf: * fixed alsa-tools to correctly cross-build
16:00 < CIA-8> rene * r22756 /trunk/package/base/strace/strace.desc: * added a second avr32 patch to strace
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16:50 < CIA-8> rene * r22757 /trunk/package/audio/libao/libao.conf: * fixed libao cross compilation by guiding the configure script a little
16:54 < CIA-8> rene * r22758 /trunk/package/audio/vorbis-tools/vorbis-tools.conf:
16:54 < CIA-8> * rewrote vorbis-tools.conf, compact and cross aware vorbisinfo
16:54 < CIA-8> installation
16:54 < CIA-8> * guide vorbis-tools' configure with libcurl on cross compilation
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18:55 < Shingoshi> Good news. I got my cable modem replaced. Hopefully now there will be no more issues with connection!
19:14 < mtr> rxr: are you sure that uclibc/patches/bash-crosscompile.patch is obsolete?
19:15 < mtr> rxr: AFAIR the problem arises in stage-3 or above,
19:15 < R4gnar0k> hi hi
19:15 < mtr> hi R4gnar0k
19:17 < R4gnar0k> hi mtr
19:25 < Shingoshi> Well, I guess I can say moin here, even if it not there!
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20:22 < rxr> so
20:22 < rxr> mtr: oh, really
20:22 < rxr> mtr: did not apply anyway :-)
20:22 < rxr> mtr: 1-bash built in my setup right now
20:22 < rxr> mtr: I can test with a t-resc tomorrow
20:23 < rxr> mtr: all patches I rm'ed did not apply and the package did built fine for avr32 in the cross stage :-))
20:23 < rxr> so - gotta go get evening dinner
20:23 < rxr> btw, we are now listed here: http://www.kde.org/download/distributions.php
20:30 < rxr> mtr: I'll also finally setup a weekly cross build tracker this week
20:31 < CIA-8> rene * r22759 /trunk/package/x86/dmidecode/dmidecode.desc: * updated dmidecode (2.8 -> 2.9)
20:31 < rxr> so - really cu ten
20:31 < rxr> then
20:31 < rxr> n8 all
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--- Log closed Wed Feb 28 00:00:23 2007